Good short and sweet version of Rough Stone Rolling?

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johnh
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Good short and sweet version of Rough Stone Rolling?

Post by johnh » 23 Apr 2013, 15:39

So this was posted recently....it was from MT (a site that is not on our approved list) so sharing from my skydrive..the authors name is in the doc.

I am trying to slog through Rough Stone and find it painful....is this a good rough synopsis of the items covered in Rough Stone?

Seemed like it covers the same subject...just briefly rather than in long Bushmanese.

//skydrive.live.com/redir.aspx?cid=dcdcb639cb9eceee&page=self&resid=DCDCB639CB9ECEEE!870&parid=DCDCB639CB9ECEEE!110&authkey=!ArEpRP-LC7TsY9k&Bpub=SDX.SkyDrive&Bsrc=Share

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Orson
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Re: Good short and sweet version of Rough Stone Rolling?

Post by Orson » 23 Apr 2013, 16:06

Hi John,

To keep with our policies I deactivated the link, but it is all valid concerns and all fairly common questions.

To answer your question the letter you referenced is not really a synopsis of Rough Stone Rolling. Bushman's book is a history of the life of Joseph Smith, the letter simply lists questions and concerns. In addition to the core content difference the approach to the issues has an entirely different flavor. This letter is saying "look at all these things that I was not prepared to hear" while the book approaches many aspects of Joseph Smith's life from a couple different angles.

Hope that helps a little.

If you want to address some of the questions from the letter we have and will continue to do that. As an overview of ways we have found to deal with these types of issues we recognize that leaders are fully human and while well intended we haven't always received the full story in a way that could have best prepared us to deal with sticky subjects. In short our expectations have been too high in some regards, while an answer is simple "we need to assimilate the facts with our faith" the application is difficult. This is why we're here.
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Re: Good short and sweet version of Rough Stone Rolling?

Post by johnh » 23 Apr 2013, 16:20

ok...I mean folks can add http to it or go look it up on the other site.

I was not very clear I meant was it a good synopsis of the issues that are covered by RSR.
I believe these items are all brought up...though again I have not read lots of the book...more spot reading.

I was just hoping folks could look over the document as to accuracy (though none of the big questions are cut and dried, I know).

As far as the view of leaders, etc...I know the story...I have been around this board since October. I ask questions here when I want a real answer...most other places I get extreme bias one way or the other. I can count on folks here saying "yes...it is accurate and fair, though it doesn't take into account <insert thoughts here>

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Orson
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Re: Good short and sweet version of Rough Stone Rolling?

Post by Orson » 23 Apr 2013, 17:19

I scanned more than half of it and while some things are presented with clear assumptions I didn't notice any gross errors as far as the historically verifiable info. Most of what becomes relevant is not the historical part but the assumption that it is put up against. Why KJV language is in the BoM has to do with the process of revelation through humans in their own language etc.
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Re: Good short and sweet version of Rough Stone Rolling?

Post by Roy » 23 Apr 2013, 18:09

I was just hoping folks could look over the document as to accuracy (though none of the big questions are cut and dried, I know).

As far as the view of leaders, etc...I know the story...I have been around this board since October. I ask questions here when I want a real answer...most other places I get extreme bias one way or the other. I can count on folks here saying "yes...it is accurate and fair, though it doesn't take into account <insert thoughts here>
Hi John,

I spent more than an hour reading the letter. It is nothing like RSR. RSR doesn't deal with the mall, blood-atonement, Adam God theory, modern forgeries, OT genocides, etc. etc.

The issues that this letter raises are many and varied from church financial transparency to Kinderhook plates to OT genocides, from Mark Hoffman to Martin Harris to Moses. The only thing that they all have in common is that they serve to disprove the church narrative.

This letter was written to a CES director that agreed to help out the grandson of a concerned grandfather. The author didn't seem to have any tact or compassion on the CES director (who he seems to have never met) or his grandfather (who is probably genuinely concerned and feels out of his element).

While many of the facts seem to be correct (I'll give him the benefit of the doubt unless I know the facts to be wrong) the conclusions are swift and condemning. For example he mentions Helen Mar Kimball as evidence of JS's pedophilia. As I understand it the union between Helen and JS was desired by her father as a dynastic link that would tie his family to JS for eternity. There is no evidence that I am aware of that this marriage included a sexual component. There is a precedent for younger girls being married in Utah period polygamy and then not having the marriage consummated until the girl comes to a more appropriate age. But I believe that the best evidence is that Helen herself didn't see it as a regular marriage and was even surprised when she was not allowed to pursue relationships with boys her age after the sealing. Her big shock and surprise was that she couldn't go to the dance, not that she was expected to act as a wife to JS in the sexual sense. The author assumes a sexual component to the marriage, assumes that it was JS's idea, and assumes that his motives were sexual gratification, and then labels it pedophilia.

I agree that much of the early church can be adequately explained as a religious movement led by a visionary man with an evolving understanding of what this movement meant and was to become. I believe that for Joseph the line between inspiration and imagination might have been fairly blurry. I agree that the modern LDS Church is probably not what JS envisioned and I am glad for that disparity. I also agree that the church's subsequent retelling of these foundational events has been retooled for our modern purposes and sanitized to the point of losing credibility.
Surprise - our church may not have any greater claim on divinity than the JW's, SDA's, Shakers or other religious movements that were born under circumstances similar to ours. :o :shock: :wtf:

This is in no way a synopsis of RSR.
Last edited by Roy on 24 Apr 2013, 09:28, edited 1 time in total.
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johnh
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Re: Good short and sweet version of Rough Stone Rolling?

Post by johnh » 23 Apr 2013, 18:29

Ok...thanks Roy. I appreciate the time spent and candid input

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Re: Good short and sweet version of Rough Stone Rolling?

Post by Curt Sunshine » 23 Apr 2013, 21:01

I just got back home and read this post.

My response would have been the same as Roy's. It is not a good summary of RSR or the issue in RSR - at all. It is meant as a hatchet job, and the conclusions are radically simplistic in many cases. There is little I would label as grossly inaccurate information, but the interpretive bias is crystal clear - to the point of absurdity in some cases, like the treatment of Helen Mar Kimball.
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Shawn
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Re: Good short and sweet version of Rough Stone Rolling?

Post by Shawn » 24 Apr 2013, 10:45

johnh wrote:I am trying to slog through Rough Stone and find it painful....is this a good rough synopsis of the items covered in Rough Stone?
I finished the book about a week ago and you described the process very well. I did not enjoy it. I do think Bushman could have included more positive stories about Joseph.

I am writing a summary of it, but it will take a long time.

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Re: Good short and sweet version of Rough Stone Rolling?

Post by mormonheretic » 24 Apr 2013, 20:26

I wrote a transcript of John Dehlin's interview of Richard Bushman. I wouldn't call it a synopsis of Rough Stone Rolling, but Dehlin asks many questions that Bushman addresses in his book. It may be an easier read than RSR, and may give you a flavor of RSR, though Dehlin touches many other topics as well. See http://mormonheretic.org/2012/06/30/the ... nterviews/

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Origami
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Good short and sweet version of Rough Stone Rolling?

Post by Origami » 25 Apr 2013, 19:41

I read this letter too. It was NOT helpful in my journey trying to get over the hurt and angry feelings I've been having about the church over these historical issues. I did however read a few things I hadn't heard before in it. I wish the church would respond with something meaningful to answer or explain some of these things.

Heretic:
Thanks for making that transcription. There are a bunch of those podcasts that I want to listen to but never seem to have that much time to invest in them. Reading it a bit at a time is much more manageable. I'm going to get through that Bushman interview yet.

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