The Nicene and Apostles' Creeds are Mormon to the Core

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Old-Timer
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The Nicene and Apostles' Creeds are Mormon to the Core

Post by Old-Timer »

I mentioned in another thread that I believe the statement in JSH 1:19 about the creeds being an abomination refers explicitly to the "creeds" of the Protestant denominations Joseph was considering joining (more precisely the "confessions", but they were "creeds" in practical application and were known by Joseph as such) - NOT the much earlier Nicene and Apostles' Creeds. My reasoning, copied from two comments in the thread from a post on my own blog, is:
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Here is the standard text for the Apostles Creed, with my commentary on each point in parentheses - parsing the words only for what they actually say, which I believe is the only fair and reasonable thing to do with statements this old:

1. I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth. (The characteristics of the Father within Mormonism might be different than Protestantism, but this statement is totally consistent with Mormonism.)
2. I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord. (To avoid confusion, since there are numerous references in the Bible to the children of God and the sons of God, it would be clearer to say "only begotten Son" - but, characteristics aside, this also is Mormon to the core.)
3. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary. (Yes, Mormon.)
4. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. (Absolutely)
5. He descended into hell. On the third day he rose again. (Yes)
6. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of God the Father Almighty. (We believe this literally.)
7. He will come again to judge the living and the dead. (Yes)
8. I believe in the Holy Spirit, (Again, characteristics aside, this absolutely is a Mormon teaching.)
9. the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, (since "catholic" means "universal", there is no clash with Mormonism here - in the same way that Protestant denominations can claim to accept it.)
10. the forgiveness of sins, (No doubt)
11. the resurrection of the body, (Yes, again literally)
12. and the life everlasting. (Yes, even if the nature of that life is different than Protestant beliefs.)
Amen.

So, when the words themselves are parsed strictly for what they say, these could be read in any Mormon meeting and be accepted as written. The only conflict comes when the words are interpreted to mean more than what they actually say when parsed.

The Nicene Creed is interesting, since it was modified (and accepted by the Eastern Orthodox Church) 56 years after it was first published by the Council of Nicea (in the version used by the Roman Catholic Church). There are at least four distinct versions of the Nicene Creed, with critical and obvious differences, which argues against an exact statement that is accepted by all Christians as normative and mandatory. It's one thing to say it is so, but when there are multiple, slightly different (in important ways) versions, it is not so in practical application - as I have said.

Here is the text from the first (325 AD) version, used by the Roman Catholic Church:

"We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of all things visible and invisible." (Yes, this fits Mormonism - every bit as much as it fits Protestantism, given the wording and the way that the next sentence is worded.)

"And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of the Father [the only-begotten; that is, of the essence of the Father, God of God], Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father;" (This also fits Mormonism, since parsing the words brings out the distinction between "one God" (the Father) and "one Lord" (the Son) who is "God of God" (which can be translated "God who came from God" [just as I am Ray of Curtis] - this standard usage has been applied to father/son combinations for millennia - and this construct is perfectly consistent with Mormon theology) - and "of one substance with the Father" (which also is what Mormonism teaches when you actually parse the meaning of the words - since we believe the Father and the Son share the same "divine DNA", if you will - even as I know how strange that phrasing is to a Protestant, it is the literal parsed meaning of the words themselves).

"By whom all things were made [both in heaven and on earth];" (Mormonism teaches this unequivocally.)

"He suffered, and the third day he rose again, ascended into heaven;" (No conflict whatsoever here.)

"From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead." (Yes)

"And in the Holy Ghost." (Yes)

Again, when the words are parsed carefully and only defined for what they actually say (not filtered through any interpretive lens), there is no problem or conflict with Mormon theology. There are MANY Mormons who don't understand this, and there are MANY Protestants who insert interpretations into the text that create conflict with Mormonism, but there is no conflict in the parsed words themselves.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken
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just me
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Re: The Nicene and Apostles' Creeds are Mormon to the Core

Post by just me »

Thanks. I am currently very fascinated with early Christianity.

I would only say that #3 could get sticky with teachings of BY...but maybe that is word parsing. ? Did BY consider Mary a virgin at the birth of Jesus Christ? I think not.
Most of us, sooner or later, find that at critical points in our lives we must strike out on our own to make a path where none exists.~Elaine Pagels

Ultimately, you are the path-the path begins and ends with you.~Stephan Bodian

He who think he knows, doesn’t know: He who knows he doesn’t know, knows.~Sanskrit proverb
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Heber13
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Re: The Nicene and Apostles' Creeds are Mormon to the Core

Post by Heber13 »

Ray,
The part about "of one substance of the father" could be explained as you propose, but that is not what any of those churches believe. Their intent was defining the godhead as the trinity, right? No one has gone back to try to correct them. That one was the only one that seemed to be stretching the words, the others all seem to be in line with mormon doctrine and most of the christian world.

Interesting.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."
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Re: The Nicene and Apostles' Creeds are Mormon to the Core

Post by Old-Timer »

just me, as far as Jesus' birth is concerned, I couldn't care less about what Brigham Young thought about it. That whole concept is as wrong to me as the priesthood ban. It's NOT consensus, official church doctrine, so I don't care about it - not at all.

Heber13, that's actually my main point. With statements that old, that generally were composed as compromises among competing factions, I think the only way to be fair is to parse the words themselves - regardless of what some of the people then and most of the people now say the words are supposed to mean. It's only when "well, they really meant to say . . ." get added that these statements begin to conflict with Mormonism.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken
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Re: The Nicene and Apostles' Creeds are Mormon to the Core

Post by jmb275 »

Very nice Ray, I like it. I do have some thoughts.

From Ray's standpoint, I agree it is not really fair to overlay our interpretations into the text. Since we weren't there, don't have complete understanding of the times and culture, or language of the day, we can only read the words as they stand.

OTOH, we can glean insight into what they may have been saying by understanding the times, culture, and language, and even the current traditional meaning. The danger here, obviously, is inductive reasoning, which is not very reliable. However, there is one form of it that is reliable, and I wish we could do more to try and incorporate it. Often, the view of many apologists I've read is that due to narrative fallacies we really can't draw any conclusions. I think this is also a fallacy.

There is information contained in both sets of analysis (from an information theory point of view) and it is difficult to find, and utilize that information. But it is possible, and I think it silly to throw out one in favor of the other. As for me personally, I choose not to latch on to any one interpretation or parsing very heartily, but leave room for incorporating new information as it becomes available. This doesn't mean I don't draw conclusions, but the conclusions I draw are not very firm. They are like my best guess, or what seems most likely to me. If you know anything about probability theory or stochastic inference, it would be the mean of the distribution.

Boy did I get off track ( :shock: ).

Okay, as for the Nicene creed, I like your interpretation Ray. I'm good with it. For me, I don't personally feel I can say anything definitive about God, and only a little about Jesus, so I'm open to various ideas.
I am like a huge, rough stone rolling down from a high mountain; and the only polishing I get is when some corner gets rubbed off by coming in contact with something else, striking with accelerated force against religious bigotry, priestcraft, lawyer-craft, doctor-craft, lying editors, suborned judges and jurors, and the authority of perjured executives, backed by mobs, blasphemers, licentious and corrupt men and women--all hell knocking off a corner here and a corner there.
- Joseph Smith, (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 304)
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Heber13
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Re: The Nicene and Apostles' Creeds are Mormon to the Core

Post by Heber13 »

Old-Timer wrote:I think the only way to be fair is to parse the words themselves.
I see your point. I don't know if I believe it is possible. It would be nice if everything was literal and word for word, but honestly, is any language perfect enough to capture true meaning word for word?

Think of how many times on these websites we discuss what "doctrine" really means, what "faith" is, what "truth" is.

The best line by Pres Clinton. "It depends on what your definition of "is" is." (paraphrased from memory).

Is that the point you are making, that when Pres Hinckley said the Nicene Creed doesn't make sense, it makes as much sense as any mormon doctrine, depending on how you read it and refraining from reading meaning into it?
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."
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Re: The Nicene and Apostles' Creeds are Mormon to the Core

Post by Old-Timer »

"Is that the point you are making, that when Pres Hinckley said the Nicene Creed doesn't make sense, it makes as much sense as any mormon doctrine, depending on how you read it and refraining from reading meaning into it?"
Exactly, Heber13.

Look at it this way:

How many times have you heard someone say, "Mormons believe . . ." and answered, "No, we don't." The response often is, "Well, So-and-so said, ' . . .'" - to which your reply is, "Yeah, but I do not think that means what you think it means." (Said in my best Sicilian accent. *grin*) (or, "Yeah, but that was long ago. We don't believe that anymore." *bigger grin* - since that really drives fundamentalists of any stripe nuts)

The only difference generally is what meaning the other person reads into the words - often when that meaning isn't in the words themselves.

I try really hard to use words that say what I mean to say. I take my time (generally) when I comment to do that, and I almost always re-read my comments and posts at least once before I submit them - looking for any way that they might be misunderstood. When someone looks back years or months from now and reads this post and comment, I don't want them to assume they know what I must mean - because, you know, I'm Mormon. I want them to read the actual words and believe that I meant what I actually wrote.

Perhaps the words of these two creeds had deeper meaning to the authors than they express when parsed - but I don't want those who read my words to assume that about me, so I try hard not to do that to others. I try to be charitable and believe they meant what they wrote, as I want others to do for me.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken
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Re: The Nicene and Apostles' Creeds are Mormon to the Core

Post by just me »

The history of Christianity is so fascinating and actually full of this very problem---what do the words mean?

People would read the same gospel and derive very different meanings from it. :o
Christians were also being put to death. It was a unique time.
One guy decided that his beliefs were "orthodox" and all other beliefs were "heterodox."
He also picked which gospels to use to form the Bible. The "four pillars" are what he picked because they aligned well with his beliefs and he felt they disproved the heretics.
Then they banned all other gospels and wanted them burned.

All because people dared to interpret words in their own way.
Most of us, sooner or later, find that at critical points in our lives we must strike out on our own to make a path where none exists.~Elaine Pagels

Ultimately, you are the path-the path begins and ends with you.~Stephan Bodian

He who think he knows, doesn’t know: He who knows he doesn’t know, knows.~Sanskrit proverb
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Heber13
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Re: The Nicene and Apostles' Creeds are Mormon to the Core

Post by Heber13 »

bump
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."
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SamBee
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Re: The Nicene and Apostles' Creeds are Mormon to the Core

Post by SamBee »

The explicit trinitarianism doesn't meld well with modern Mormonism.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."
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