The 1/3 of the Host of Heaven

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nibbler
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Re: The 1/3 of the Host of Heaven

Post by nibbler » 15 Nov 2013, 10:26

Heber13 wrote:That also makes me think of the Atonement, and it being infinite. Wouldn't you think, just like the excommunicated member can repent and work back into the church, wouldn't you think the 1/3 cast out from the first estate, could be given a chance to return...although it wouldn't be easy...it would be possible somehow, sometime, in some way? Why not, right? What would the Lord have to lose if they really wanted to return?
That's funny, that thought had occurred to me while I was thinking about the subject but I didn't feel inclined to mention it. I'm glad you did, I was starting to feel I was "out there" with those thoughts.
Heber13 wrote:Sometimes in church people like to feel better about ourselves...we chose right...and those poor souls who didn't keep their first estate are damned...and I'm glad I'm not them. But clearly the Lord's teachings of the laborers in the vineyard warns us against thinking wages have to be fair based on how we think it should be fair to us. Right?
Again, an interesting point to bring up... for me personally. I've always had issue with understanding Matthew 20:1-16. I don't want to derail the thread so in short words... I understand the general principle the parable is trying to convey about it not mattering when the conversion takes place but that the conversion takes place, etc. ... but the more worldly side of me is always left with a "welp householder, good luck getting some workers to come into work tomorrow morning" taste in my mouth, which is a clear indicator to me that I haven't truly learned the principle. Perhaps a conversation left for a more focused, dedicated thread.

Joni
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Re: The 1/3 of the Host of Heaven

Post by Joni » 25 Nov 2013, 07:59

InquiringMind wrote: And why would God create billions of spirit children with the knowledge that they would spend eternity in misery?
I think that God is a lot less compassionate and infinitely loving than what we tell kids in Primary.

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DarkJedi
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Re: The 1/3 of the Host of Heaven

Post by DarkJedi » 25 Nov 2013, 11:01

Joni wrote:
InquiringMind wrote: And why would God create billions of spirit children with the knowledge that they would spend eternity in misery?
I think that God is a lot less compassionate and infinitely loving than what we tell kids in Primary.
Me, too.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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Roy
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Re: The 1/3 of the Host of Heaven

Post by Roy » 25 Nov 2013, 16:20

DarkJedi wrote:
Joni wrote:
InquiringMind wrote: And why would God create billions of spirit children with the knowledge that they would spend eternity in misery?
I think that God is a lot less compassionate and infinitely loving than what we tell kids in Primary.
Me, too.
I think Paul the Apostle might agree with you too. He talks about how it is God's perogative to create one vessel for honor and another for dishonor. He is the creator, it is His decision. I just disagree with Paul. ;)
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

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SamBee
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Re: The 1/3 of the Host of Heaven

Post by SamBee » 25 Nov 2013, 16:23

Regarding sacrifices being willing, I don't think this is the case. Rather the sacrificer has to be willing. In the case of Jesus, his father could be seen as sacrificer, or Jesus himself, depending on your POV.

The reason I say this is, because I don't think the numerous sheep,
goats, bulls, doves etc had much say in Jewish sacrifices, and weren't probably willing!
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

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SamBee
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Re: The 1/3 of the Host of Heaven

Post by SamBee » 25 Nov 2013, 16:34

The Muslims have interesting views on this. They refer to Djinn, which is obviously borrowed from the same ancient Greek and Latin, which gives us "genius" and "genius loci". We know this word too in the form "genie" from some of the early translations of the Arabian Nights.

Djinn can possess people, live in dust storms (cf "dust devil"), work
for magicians (cf Aladdin) and be trapped, haunt houses and cause all
sorts of mischief (poltergeist activity). Some are quite powerful.

But more interestingly, not all djinn are evil in Islam. Mohammed
actually converted some to Islam, and they are mentioned in various
terms in the Koran.

Djinn are bodyless spirits, but unlike the 1/3 seem to belong to a
different type of Creation and our not our brothers or sisters.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

Jonathan CV
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Re: The 1/3 of the Host of Heaven

Post by Jonathan CV » 18 Sep 2017, 09:10

My FEEDBACK to LDS.org Gospel Principles, Chapter 11: 18 September 2017
The first sentence of this chapter reads, "Every person who comes to earth depends on Jesus Christ to fulfill the promise He made in heaven to be our Savior.” These seem to be important words, carefully chosen. However, I find serious disagreement about it among knowledgable members.

Every = none excluded
person = individual, self-aware intelligence, embodied or unembodied. Much broader than "soul"
comes = arrives from elsewhere. Much broader than "born"
earth = this probationary state and later
Savior = Redeemer, the One who makes it possible for the dead to live again and return to our Father in heaven's kingdom.

This seminal sentence seems carefully crafted to include the 1/3 who rebelled and were cast out to earth with Satan to prove themselves and be judged at the last day. Jude 1:6, DC 19:2-7, 138:58-59, 29:41, HC 4:425-426, etc. support that reading.

If, in fact, being cast down to earth was final Judgement and the 1/3 are guilty of the unpardonable sin, doomed to Outer Darkness forever, as many of the saints believe (I used to), please change the sentence. I can find nothing in the scriptures that supports that, but nothing that clearly describes the more joyous divine nature and destiny: ultimate redemption for repentant spirits of the 1/3.

Until I can find clear direction to the contrary, I will continue to teach the simple reading of that sentence: that the 1/3 will come to the Final Judgement, and can be saved if they repent and obey the ordinances of the house of God.

Curt Sunshine
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Re: The 1/3 of the Host of Heaven

Post by Curt Sunshine » 18 Sep 2017, 15:26

Just to reiterate what I said earlier, at the time and for the people when this was written, a third part meant "an unspecified minority". (There was a difference between "a third part" and "two third parts".) Therefore, whether it is literal or figurative, all it says is that fewer spirits followed Lucifer than accepted Jehovah.

(Also, interestingly, there were few instances where one-half were used. In the entire Old Testament, "one half" occurs only four times - and "one-half" doesn't appear at all. The ancient Biblical numerology simply wasn't as simple or black-and-white as we tend to assume.)

Even from a more orthodox view than I actually have, I take it to mean that, in the end, there will be a smaller percent in Outer Darkness, the Telestial Kingdom, and the Terrestrial Kingdom combined (if the kingdoms are ultimate conditions, which I don't believe them to be) than there will be in the Celestial Kingdom - that, in the end, two third parts (the large, obvious majority) will accept Christ and be rewarded fully for it.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

Roy
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Re: The 1/3 of the Host of Heaven

Post by Roy » 18 Sep 2017, 15:45

Hi Jonathan and welcome,

It seems to me that we are talking about spirits that existed in the pre-mortal life and postulating about their eternal destiny in the post mortal life. My experience here has led me to believe that both pre-mortal and post-mortal realms are highly speculative and that not much is known about them. Therefore, whatever you wish to believe about either that is uplifting and meaningful to your daily walk in this life is a valid perspective.

The problem I see you getting into with most traditional believers is that the spirits that followed Satan have no body. Are you suggesting that a spirit can be saved into a kingdom of Glory with no body? I do not know that it could not happen. Interesting concept.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

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DarkJedi
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Re: The 1/3 of the Host of Heaven

Post by DarkJedi » 18 Sep 2017, 18:20

Roy wrote:
18 Sep 2017, 15:45
It seems to me that we are talking about spirits that existed in the pre-mortal life and postulating about their eternal destiny in the post mortal life. My experience here has led me to believe that both pre-mortal and post-mortal realms are highly speculative and that not much is known about them. Therefore, whatever you wish to believe about either that is uplifting and meaningful to your daily walk in this life is a valid perspective.
This is where I am also. Hence I don't spend much time joining in the speculation, although such things can be fun to fantasize about sometimes. I don't think anyone - including any prophet ancient or modern - really knows the true big picture of it all.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

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