The 1/3 of the Host of Heaven

Public forum to discuss questions about Mormon history and doctrine.
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mackay11
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Re: The 1/3 of the Host of Heaven

Post by mackay11 » 06 Nov 2012, 04:02

Orson wrote:What if it is just the first chapter of the story, and we have the wrong idea about how it will turn?

What if we need to follow the teachings of Christ to experience the mighty change of heart that will prompt us to say out of love for our brothers: "let him take my place in the kingdom, I could not bear to live in glory when this my brother is out in the dark."

What if our truly following Christ and becoming perfectly loving selfless beings will save all men in the end?
I love this concept. Is the "quote" your own?

Regarding endless torment. I particularly like the message in D&C 19:6-12:
6 Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment.
7 Again, it is written eternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory.
8 Wherefore, I will explain unto you this mystery, for it is meet unto you to know even as mine apostles.
9 I speak unto you that are chosen in this thing, even as one, that you may enter into my rest.
10 For, behold, the mystery of godliness, how great is it! For, behold, I am endless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment, for Endless is my name. Wherefore—
11 Eternal punishment is God’s punishment.
12 Endless punishment is God’s punishment.
So first, we've no need to worry about people in endless torment. It doesn't mean that there will be no end to it. Maybe this also applies to the 1/3rd.

More interesting than just this application is the clear statement in 6-7 that the Lord says that we should stop taking everything so literally. Just because he said something that we think we can measure in actual terms (in this case 'endless') doesn't mean we were supposed to. He also suggests (with what sounds like a wry smile) that He doesn't always mean exactly what we think He means... but doesn't mind if our misunderstanding leads to His desired outcome for us.

These verses give us the licence to liberate ourselves from literalists in LDS lessons.

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Orson
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Re: The 1/3 of the Host of Heaven

Post by Orson » 06 Nov 2012, 08:50

I love that Mackay11, thanks for that!
My avatar - both physical and spiritual.

I first found faith, and thought I had all truth. I then discovered doubt, and claimed a more accurate truth. Now I’ve greeted paradox and a deeper truth than I have ever known.

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wayfarer
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Re: The 1/3 of the Host of Heaven

Post by wayfarer » 06 Nov 2012, 11:50

mackay11 wrote:These verses give us the licence to liberate ourselves from literalists in LDS lessons.
To quote Beethoven, "Hallelujah, amen, amen, Hallelujah, amen!"
"Those who speak don't know, those who know don't speak." Lao Tzu.
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johnh
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Re: The 1/3 of the Host of Heaven

Post by johnh » 13 Nov 2012, 19:13

This one kind of bothers me too.....
Spirit in Pre-existence, have no experience with earth, physical bodies, etc.
Given a choice, some think "70 years with Lucidork and I can come home again...compared to eternity thats nothing"
Now you say ...it wasn't just a choice...they rebelled against god and there was a war in heaven! I say...how bad a war could it be? They have no physical bodies, can't feel pain, can't hurt each other....maybe they can call each other names, maybe write nasty things about each other using really lightweight crayons?

So...eternal damnation for disagreement....for what sounds like their first ever disagreement...seems a little harsh for a loving god. So I think this is more of a parable....at least I hope it is because I can't think of anything they can do there that has not been done way worse here...and the folks here get to rock the telestial kingdom no matter what.

My heart tells me that if there are a third who were cast out that a loving father will find a way to help all who have learned their lesson to come back....at least that is my hope.

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wayfarer
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Re: The 1/3 of the Host of Heaven

Post by wayfarer » 14 Nov 2012, 04:17

johnh wrote:So...eternal damnation for disagreement....for what sounds like their first ever disagreement...seems a little harsh for a loving god. So I think this is more of a parable....at least I hope it is because I can't think of anything they can do there that has not been done way worse here...and the folks here get to rock the telestial kingdom no matter what.

My heart tells me that if there are a third who were cast out that a loving father will find a way to help all who have learned their lesson to come back....at least that is my hope.
Faced with the narrowness of our scriptural worldview, we can:
1. invent a new narrative that helps us deal with it, or
2. bend our minds into twisted pretzels to justify it as do apologists, or
3. recognize that it all scripture is simply human expression as it grapples with the divine using the primitive worldview of the prophet that revealed a given scripture.

I choose (3). And in so doing, I have had to deconstruct my faith -- the narratives that I have grown up with -- to recognize that all the stories are just simply somebody's guess about the nature of the cosmos. The fact that the guess got written down and canonized as scripture does not change the fact that it is speculation, and very likely wrong.

Institutionalized fictional stories have their place -- they create a mythical fabric to teach us things. But when we discover that what they teach: racism, genocide, slavery, exclusivity, bigotry, and a host of other primitive ways to deal with the unknown, we need to start setting aside those aspects of the myth that don't work any longer. It isn't like we can continue to believe that white skin equates to righteousness and dark skin to cursing. Most LDS reject that belief, yet the Book of Mormon -- the most correct book -- and as Tad Callister says, the word of god in every verse and sentence -- continues to say exactly that.

There is no middle ground in saying that our mythical stories are entirely and literally 'true' when they contain false things we MUST reject. Defense of bigotry is to be a bigot oneself. No amount of apologetic reasoning can justify the idea that a 'loving god', whatever that may mean, is happy to relegate 1/3 of his children to a permanent existence of incorporeal exclusion: the principle is simply false -- it is a mythical account meant to teach that we are favored children of god, that we chose righteousness against an artificial tableau of good versus evil. That is the tableau of the book of mormon, as it is the book of abraham and the entire first-estate/second-estate mythical framework. Using the idea that god can selectively decide to exclude 1/3 of his children, withhold priesthood from black people, justify wars against lamanites on the idea that they are loathsome due to their skin color, or command the genocide of the amalekites just because they are archtypes of the evil 'other' -- this is entirely uninspired teaching and false doctrine -- yet that is what scripture contains.

To me, the answer to the idea that all scripture is a result of a mix of the divine with the very human worldview of the mind and heart prophet is that all scripture must be taken non-literally. Spiritual discernment is always necessary, and the discerning mind should not make up new stuff the justify the scripture, but rather, we should simply set aside scriptural fallacies as if they were dross. A walnut requires me to break open the shell and pick out the fruit from the inedible stuff. Then I can enjoy the taste of the walnut. Consuming the walnut whole is not possible, and mixing in with the dross leaves a most bitter taste in my mouth.

Scripture is no different.
"Those who speak don't know, those who know don't speak." Lao Tzu.
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mackay11
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The 1/3 of the Host of Heaven

Post by mackay11 » 14 Nov 2012, 05:02

johnh wrote: They have no physical bodies, can't feel pain, can't hurt each other....maybe they can call each other names, maybe write nasty things about each other using really lightweight crayons?
Johnh... I'm going to look forward to your posts. I'm shaking while trying to hold in the laughter.

On a serious note. Yes, quite probably a parable of principle.

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opentofreedom
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Re: The 1/3 of the Host of Heaven

Post by opentofreedom » 27 Jul 2013, 18:06

This is an old post, but I have been contemplating the same thing.
I also feel the similar to inquiringmind... that
The third of the host of heaven who followed Lucifer are part of the plan of salvation as well: they provide us with the opposition and temptation we need to give us strength and to prove ourselves worthy of exaltation. Without opposition, we can't be exalted, so without this third who followed Lucifer to provide us with opposition, we couldn't be exalted.
And if there is opposition in all things does that mean that I have the ability to contain just as much darkness as I do light? Do they coincide at the same time?

I also feel that the God, Father in Heaven, I believe in can and will save us all... and quite possibly through us. I think we are all in this together; spirits with or without bodies. This is my limited belief for today which may change and hopefully expand again soon.
Namaste: the divine light in me honors the divine light in you.

“Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.”
~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

Featherina

Re: The 1/3 of the Host of Heaven

Post by Featherina » 01 Aug 2013, 06:33

opentofreedom wrote:And if there is opposition in all things does that mean that I have the ability to contain just as much darkness as I do light? Do they coincide at the same time?
I was thinking about this last night, after watching, "Rise of the Guradians."
For kids, and the sake of simplicity, there is often polarized thinking, although it is a cognitive distortion... bad guys are portrayed as purely bad & good guys as purely good.
In reality, I think they are mixed, as none of us are 100% good nor 100% evil.

Moreover, attempting to avoid fears (darkness) at all costs, is the cause of more fear and darkness.
There's more genuine love and confidence based on a confrontation of thorns and darkness, than the close-minded insistance that everything is roses and light.
As a friend pointed out, "Before there was light, it was dark."
There's a balance, though - opposition allows us to appreciate each for its distinguishing qualities.
I liked how Uchtorf suggested we acknowledge the darkness, but dwell in the light.

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SamBee
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Re: The 1/3 of the Host of Heaven

Post by SamBee » 01 Aug 2013, 09:15

For kids, and the sake of simplicity, there is often polarized thinking, although it is a cognitive distortion... bad guys are portrayed as purely bad & good guys as purely good.
In reality, I think they are mixed, as none of us are 100% good nor 100% evil.
This is a common problem in children's films, and the more commercial ones.

Evil is essentially a seduction process. It doesn't come straight at you one day, and say "fancy becoming a chainsaw killer?" or "wanna rob a bank?", but more like "do this, it's only a little thing", or "well, you're already doing X, so why can't you do Y?" It's incremental, starts with the little things, and takes you on to the bigger ones. But we do get some stuff horribly wrong, and over stuff which doesn't matter a hill o' beans. Dating before sixteen is not wrong (as long as it's not someone a lot older), and doesn't necessarily lead to pregnancy. Wearing a beard, or a blue shirt, is not blasphemy. Getting two sets of earrings won't send you to hell. etc
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

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Re: The 1/3 of the Host of Heaven

Post by SamBee » 01 Aug 2013, 09:22

johnh wrote:
They have no physical bodies, can't feel pain, can't hurt each other....maybe they can call each other names, maybe write nasty things about each other using really lightweight crayons?
Well, according to a lot of people, evil spirits can sometimes move physical objects, and/or write things.

What if, the evll - and I mean, really nasty - people amongst us are actually more evil and cunning than the spirits. In our theology, we had to agree with HF's body plan right? Well, what if some of the spirits said that they did, but were liars, or even double agents? If you agreed to the plan, but were evil in the pre-existence, do you get through? In which case, some of us might be worse than the disembodied spirits.

However, I prefer to look upon this positively. The fact we've got bodies, according to our theology, suggests we've passed one big test, at least, before even coming here.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

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