Well I suppose this ups the credibility of my hypothesis that rationalize anything is possible with "the spirit of the law"Yes. My garments at this point can only be seen with the spiritual eyes. They are made of a material that is more refined and ethereal.
TR Question Survey - Question 12: Temple Covenants
Re: TR Question Survey - Question 12: Temple Covenants
Last edited by bc_pg on 13 Jul 2012, 12:20, edited 1 time in total.
Re: TR Question Survey - Question 12: Temple Covenants
You get the award for the most out-there, elegant rationalization ever. I thought I was creative. I bow to your mastery!Brian Johnston wrote:"Do you wear the garment both night and day as instructed in the endowment and in accordance with the covenant you made in the temple?"
Yes. My garments at this point can only be seen with the spiritual eyes. They are made of a material that is more refined and ethereal. I wear these night and day. In fact, I never take them off.
"Those who speak don't know, those who know don't speak." Lao Tzu.
My seat in the bloggernacle: http://wayfaringfool.blogspot.com
My seat in the bloggernacle: http://wayfaringfool.blogspot.com
Re: TR Question Survey - Question 12: Temple Covenants
I'm not trying to step on any toes here, but it's clear to me we are taught that garments are to be worn EVERY day and night:
It appears they should be on almost constantly, since they should not be removed "to work in the yard or to lounge around."The First Presidency prepared a letter to the Church on this subject. They wrote:
“Practices frequently observed among the members of the Church suggest that some members do not fully understand the covenant they make in the temple to wear the garment in accordance with the spirit of the holy endowment.
“Church members who have been clothed with the garment in the temple have made a covenant to wear it throughout their lives. This has been interpreted to mean that it is worn as underclothing both day and night. … The promise of protection and blessings is conditioned upon worthiness and faithfulness in keeping the covenant.
“The fundamental principle ought to be to wear the garment and not to find occasions to remove it. Thus, members should not remove either all or part of the garment to work in the yard or to lounge around the home in swimwear or immodest clothing. Nor should they remove it to participate in recreational activities that can reasonably be done with the garment worn properly beneath regular clothing. When the garment must be removed, such as for swimming, it should be restored as soon as possible..." link
Re: TR Question Survey - Question 12: Temple Covenants
We all know how it IS interpreted by most members and leaders.
This hasn't always been interpreted to mean the same thing. Garments used to be for nothing but temple attendance. Thus, I have no problem taking the statement at its word and seeing the entire day and night, every day and night "interpretation" as just that - and interpretation and not divine, eternal command.
Remember, I say that as someone who wears the garment exactly as it now is taught in the quote you provided. I have no problems whatsoever personally with wearing it that way - but I will take it off any time I think it is not appropriate to wear it, even if that differs from what others might think. Since I insist on assuming that responsibility personally, I'm not about to tell someone else she can't have the exact same responsibility for her own life - even if that means she removes it more often than I do.
My conscience is clear on the subject. All I can say is that everyone else has the right to act according to the dictates of their own conscience, as well.
This has been interpreted to mean
This hasn't always been interpreted to mean the same thing. Garments used to be for nothing but temple attendance. Thus, I have no problem taking the statement at its word and seeing the entire day and night, every day and night "interpretation" as just that - and interpretation and not divine, eternal command.
Remember, I say that as someone who wears the garment exactly as it now is taught in the quote you provided. I have no problems whatsoever personally with wearing it that way - but I will take it off any time I think it is not appropriate to wear it, even if that differs from what others might think. Since I insist on assuming that responsibility personally, I'm not about to tell someone else she can't have the exact same responsibility for her own life - even if that means she removes it more often than I do.
My conscience is clear on the subject. All I can say is that everyone else has the right to act according to the dictates of their own conscience, as well.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)
Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken
Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken
Re: TR Question Survey - Question 12: Temple Covenants
ya gotta love passive voice. it wonderfully absolves any responsibility to identify the source of the 'doctrine'.this has been interpreted to mean
As well, it's one of many.
'this has been interpreted to mean' wear them day and night'. 'this has also been interpreted' to wear them only in the temple, and to set them aside reverently rather than defile them in daily use. Both statements are true, because neither says that 'this has been interpreted to explicitly and exclusively mean'....
I find this depressing when an unsourced, passive voiced statement becomes commandment.
"Those who speak don't know, those who know don't speak." Lao Tzu.
My seat in the bloggernacle: http://wayfaringfool.blogspot.com
My seat in the bloggernacle: http://wayfaringfool.blogspot.com
Re: TR Question Survey - Question 12: Temple Covenants
So, if a spouse believes the quote from Shawn above to be interpreted to mean one thing, and believes their spouse is not complying, and despite several attempts to help them see they should wear it correctly (from their view), with no success, and then in frustration goes to the bishop to get guidance on how to help the other spouse comply with covenants that affect the eternal family...
...as a leader, or as a bishop, what would you do?
What should the spouse who is being told to wear them differently do to respond to a confrontation by the bishop?
(I sincerely ask this because I think sometimes people navigating their faith struggle with how they see things are ok, but need to deal with family members and others that disagree with them...I think we could provide examples on how to have your own belief about something and stand up for it while maintaining relationships. Just some background behind my intentions of this post.).
...as a leader, or as a bishop, what would you do?
What should the spouse who is being told to wear them differently do to respond to a confrontation by the bishop?
(I sincerely ask this because I think sometimes people navigating their faith struggle with how they see things are ok, but need to deal with family members and others that disagree with them...I think we could provide examples on how to have your own belief about something and stand up for it while maintaining relationships. Just some background behind my intentions of this post.).
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."
Re: TR Question Survey - Question 12: Temple Covenants
I would tell the spouse that I can't get involved in that situation and that all I can do is ask the question during the temple recommend interview. I probably also would tell him or her that I know various members who wear the garment differently than each other and that it is between those people and the Lord....as a leader, or as a bishop, what would you do?
I know, however, that many Bishops would be worried and would, therefore, try to talk with the other spouse and convince him or her to wear the garment according to the current interpretation.
What should the spouse who is being told to wear them differently do to respond to a confrontation by the bishop?
Thank him sincerely and honestly for his concern and love, and tell him that he or she will ponder even more, pray about it and act according to whatever answer he or she believes results - then go home and do that, letting the spouse know what is happening. If there are no damaging body image or other psychological issues involved, and if wearing the garment is an option, frankly, I would suggest wearing it for the emotional support of the spouse - but telling the spouse directly that going to the Bishop to try to force the issue was not appreciated and won't have the same result if done again. I might even quote D&C 121 about unrighteous dominion if I was in a particularly bad mood - but I wouldn't suggest it when dealing with a wife.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)
Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken
Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken
Re: TR Question Survey - Question 12: Temple Covenants
Re. the letter quoted in Nephite's post: I have never understood that I made a covenant to wear garments, but that my garments are to remind me of the covenants I did make. Would appreciate some help. What is going on here?
"Preachers err by trying to talk people into belief; better they reveal the radiance of their own discovery." - Joseph Campbell
"The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes, but in having new eyes." - Marcel Proust
"Therefore they said unto him, How were thine eyes opened? He answered and said unto them, A man that is called Jesus made clay, and anointed my eyes...." - John 9:10-11
"The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes, but in having new eyes." - Marcel Proust
"Therefore they said unto him, How were thine eyes opened? He answered and said unto them, A man that is called Jesus made clay, and anointed my eyes...." - John 9:10-11
Re: TR Question Survey - Question 12: Temple Covenants
It's mentioned tangentially but not as an explicit covenant where anyone says, "Yes" to a specific question. The actual temple wording is more along the lines of a classic "If . . . then . . ." statement, which isn't the pure definition of a covenant.
It's treated as a covenant (sort of an implied promise) by many members, since there is a promise attached to wearing it - and because we overuse the word "covenant" in the Church.
It's treated as a covenant (sort of an implied promise) by many members, since there is a promise attached to wearing it - and because we overuse the word "covenant" in the Church.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)
Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken
Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken
Re: TR Question Survey - Question 12: Temple Covenants
It happened like this: "Sister _________, having authority, I place this garment upon you, which you must wear throughout your life." I'm not saying that's a covenant you made - just showing you the wording.Ann wrote:Re. the letter quoted in Nephite's post: I have never understood that I made a covenant to wear garments, but that my garments are to remind me of the covenants I did make. Would appreciate some help. What is going on here?