TR Question Survey - Question 10b: Word of Wisdom

Public forum to discuss questions about Mormon history and doctrine.

Do you keep the Word of Wisdom?

Yes
28
76%
No
9
24%
 
Total votes: 37

doug
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Re: TR Question Survey - Question 10b: Word of Wisdom

Post by doug » 11 Jul 2012, 17:39

Well, of course you guys have already addressed it in so many words, but the first question that goes through my mind is which WoW are we talking about? The one in section 89 (WoW(a)), or that other one that's not really explicitly written down anywhere (WoW(b))? Though I suppose I could answer "yes" to the latter, I'm not so sure about the former. I guess I hadn't really thought about that before. That's sad.

Anyhow, once again during this discussion about TR questions this impresses upon me that, though I understand that the process has a lot of value for many people, to me it is at best an annoyance and invasion of my privacy and at worst an invitation to participate in a carnival of the absurd.
Last edited by doug on 11 Jul 2012, 19:02, edited 3 times in total.
The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also. -- Mark Twain

doug
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Re: TR Question Survey - Question 10b: Word of Wisdom

Post by doug » 11 Jul 2012, 17:47

Mike wrote:I know that I will be having to give up coffee before I go through the TR process.
I know I need to put a lid on the cynicism, but please bear with me. If I was "keeping" the WoW(b) for a year, am I "keeping the WoW(b)"? How about a month? A week? In order to be technically truthful in answering "yes", how long would you have to have been doing it? What think ye?
The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also. -- Mark Twain

bc_pg
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Re: TR Question Survey - Question 10b: Word of Wisdom

Post by bc_pg » 11 Jul 2012, 17:57

@Mike

The visual you of reading an ensign article while sipping coffee makes me smile.

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wayfarer
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Re: TR Question Survey - Question 10b: Word of Wisdom

Post by wayfarer » 11 Jul 2012, 18:01

mercyngrace wrote:I answer yes because I tend, probably like most members, to focus on the prohibitions. I need to work on living the spirit of the law.
m&g, you have a way of boiling down things to the most simple essence of things.

Yes. the spirit of the law.

I have been struggling for weeks of how to express what I believe on this issue. your comment brought it all together for me, the consistent thread that underlies every aspect of my 'issues' with the church as currently managed, with the narrowness of how the Saints interpret things: it boils down to one, single principle: spirit versus letter.

the letter of scripture, of the historical account of the origin of the book of mormon, of evolution versus creationism, of iron rod thinking versus liahona...is a rigidity that the 'words' of scripture and of what the prophets say, of the origin of the church and book of mormon, are all literally true. I have come to believe none of the literalism that surrounds this religion: not the definition of god, not the literal account of jesus, not the concept of justice-based atonement requiring a physical death, not the literal aspects of church origins, and not the literal acceptance of everything the prophet says is true no matter what. holding hard onto literalism is the way of death: for when we find out that the literal stories are in direct conflict with 'truth' we become disaffected and our relationship with the church tends to die.

For most in the church, the literalism provides a comfort that things are so because they were meant to be so. God literally dictated to Joseph Smith the book of mormon, doctrine and covenants, and the pearl of great price. god dictates, word for word, each aspect of what we're supposed to do in the church. It's all divine.

But...it isn't. god doesn't work that way. god isn't that way. god isn't...anything what we think god is. unless we come to simply understand that god is being itself, authentically here and now. but that's too far down the chain of thinking for most of us who still hold on to the idea of the parent.

My personal revelation came to understand the intimacy of god as reflected in the atman -- our divine nature being at once one with god and yet estranged from our conscious, mortal, estranged selves. In LDS terms, the presence of the holy ghost, the equal member of the godhead, resides within us, is an intimate and persistent companion to each one of us. If we talk about 'footprints in the sand', and think of the times when god or jesus carries us, the persistent companion, according to LDS and christian theology, is the presence of the holy ghost/holy spirit.

But on a deeper level, presence within is not a 'ghost' who comes and possesses us: it is in fact our divine nature: a much more integral part of ourselves than some detached 'visitor' who comes and resides with us on occasion. Our divine nature, our god within, is ALWAYS with us, part of our minds that shares our physical corporeality, but is not our conscious self.

Coming to this realization, that our divine nature, our god within, is always present and abiding, then the abode of god becomes "literally" our body. Our brain, our mind, the wondrous structure of our wetware with all of its chemical glory is the abode of god: a temple in the literal sense.

So why, then, would a god within ever have anything to do with a mind or mood altering substance? How could i possibly be right in my rather unusual take on conforming with the word of wisdom?

ah...that's an interesting question.
"Those who speak don't know, those who know don't speak." Lao Tzu.
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Minyan Man
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Re: TR Question Survey - Question 10b: Word of Wisdom

Post by Minyan Man » 11 Jul 2012, 18:41

Everyone on this site have many good responses to this question.
doug said:
If I was "keeping" the WoW(b) for a year, am I "keeping the WoW(b)"? How about a month? A week? In order to be technically truthful in answering "yes", how long would you have to have been doing it? What think ye?
You pose an interesting question. But, being an Alcoholic, if I drank today, can I answer tomorrow that I'm living the WoW?
Either you are or you aren't. I've got to think about this more before I go to the interview.

bc_pg, you won't see me anytime soon on a "commercial" for the Church sitting in a coffee shop & reading the Ensign.
Needless to say, I'm in a remote portion of the kingdom.

I wonder what OPR would do?

Mike from Milton.

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wayfarer
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Re: TR Question Survey - Question 10b: Word of Wisdom

Post by wayfarer » 11 Jul 2012, 18:52

Mike wrote:You pose an interesting question. But, being an Alcoholic, if I drank today, can I answer tomorrow that I'm living the WoW?
Either you are or you aren't. I've got to think about this more before I go to the interview.

bc_pg, you won't see me anytime soon on a "commercial" for the Church sitting in a coffee shop & reading the Ensign.
Needless to say, I'm in a remote portion of the kingdom.

I wonder what OPR would do?
If you had a drink today, OPR would match you, shot for shot. Either that, our you could select one of his fine beers at his brewery.
Wikipedia wrote:It was Porter's fame as a "mountain man" that attracted the explorer Richard Francis Burton to him[citation needed]. In 1860, on his trip across America to the west coast, Burton stopped to explore Salt Lake City and its environs. He stayed with Bishop Lysander Dayton (from Ohio) in a village near the city one evening and Dayton invited Porter Rockwell to dinner. Porter sent for a bottle of Valley Tan Whiskey and he and Burton drank shot for shot into the night with Porter outlining steps that Burton should take for safety during his passage to Sacramento.

Porter operated the Hot Springs Hotel and Brewery at the southern end of the Salt Lake Valley, in an area known as "Point of the Mountain." The former site of the hotel is now on the grounds of a state prison. A nearby stone marker commemorates the spot.[
Seriously, though, as we who are or have been alcoholics know, we only have today, one day at a time. If you weren't drinking today, you'd be 'keeping the word of wisdom' in the present tense, even if yesterday you didn't. I'm not recommending this answer, however.

I thought of you a lot as I have posted the opening post here in this thread. Please understand that I completely and totally respect you in your daily walk as one of Bill's friends. I walked that path for many years, and it was a significant part of my spiritual program. I walk a different path now, but it is not 'superior' to yours by any stretch -- just different, and I find this very challenging, but necessary for reasons I can't go into here.

I really loved your post -- all of it.
"Those who speak don't know, those who know don't speak." Lao Tzu.
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Re: TR Question Survey - Question 10b: Word of Wisdom

Post by Curt Sunshine » 11 Jul 2012, 19:18

Yes - I follow the current, "accepted" interpretation of the WofW AND what I want to follow concerning the spirit of D&C 89. I eat meat regularly but in quantities I consider to be moderate (sparingly, very loosely defined); I eat fruits and grains and try to make it as healthy as I can (and I've focused more on that over the last few months - and lost weight accordingly, btw); I don't partake of any currently "prohibited" substances (both because of what I know about myself and because I don't care about those substances in any way and won't partake simply to take a stance of any kind); I love the general idea of the strong sacrificing for the good of the weak; I believe the focus on future addiction peddlers was prophetic to the core; etc.

I don't agree with lots of the justifications other people use to follow the WofW, but mine makes sense to me. I have no desire to not follow this one.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

Minyan Man
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Re: TR Question Survey - Question 10b: Word of Wisdom

Post by Minyan Man » 11 Jul 2012, 20:21

I believe that I must take the same approach with the WoW that I did with Tithing.
Make a decision concerning what the WoW means in my personal journey.
Pray about it & seeks Gods influence in my decision.
If it's wrong, God can tell me.
Make changes if needed.

Again, I'm not trying to be sarcastic or justify my actions to fit the situation.
I always want to remember what many of you said.
Knowing it is more important to live the spirit of the law then the letter.
This will require more thought, prayer & discussions with my Wife.
I trust her opinions too.

wayfarer, you make me smile. OPR was really a character in church history. He was a spirit with real "texture".

Mike from Milton.

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mom3
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Re: TR Question Survey - Question 10b: Word of Wisdom

Post by mom3 » 11 Jul 2012, 21:03

My children's Tae Kwon Do instructor taught me his view on religious dietary counsel. He considers himself more Judeo-Christian than any other style of faith. That said he has studied many of them and practices a real combination of them. I asked him about how he defined religion, he had three definers, - an act of divinity, a strict health code, and regular required rituals. These he said sculpt the soul. I really pondered that for a bit. I too am a follower of our WofW, and have some very personal reasons why I do, those reasons have little bearing on church teaching. It is more from watching others experiences. That said I do wish we obeyed it Joseph's way, because I believe if we followed it with that faith and direction of moderation we would find more souls healed because there would be love instead of judgement against the people incumbered by the negative challenges with it. Does that make any sense? If not forgive me, it's been a long day.
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

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cwald
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Re: TR Question Survey - Question 10b: Word of Wisdom

Post by cwald » 11 Jul 2012, 21:07

Actually...that makes a LOT of sense mom3.

Oh yeah...jwald says hi. We missed you at the last meetup at McMennamins.


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  Jesus gave us the gospel, but Satan invented church. It takes serious evil to formalize faith into something tedious and then pile guilt on anyone who doesn't participate enthusiastically. - Robert Kirby

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