TR Question Survey - Question 8: Keeping covenants

Public forum to discuss questions about Mormon history and doctrine.

Do you strive to keep the convenants you've made (see full question below)?

Yes
13
72%
No
5
28%
 
Total votes: 18

bc_pg
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Re: TR Question Survey - Question 8: Keeping covenants

Post by bc_pg » 11 Jul 2012, 15:50

I'll avoid being too specific about the covenants to avoid offense and just say that you are thinking of the "consecration" covenant where I find the "sacrifice" covenant more troubling.

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cwald
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Re: TR Question Survey - Question 8: Keeping covenants

Post by cwald » 11 Jul 2012, 16:09

bc_pg wrote:I'll avoid being too specific about the covenants to avoid offense and just say that you are thinking of the "consecration" covenant where I find the "sacrifice" covenant more troubling.
I haven't been to the temple in 14 years, and I'm not even sure what the covenant are anymore. Can we list the temple covenants here? I don't know? Or are they secret/sacred, and not to be discussed outside of the temple? Serious question.
  Jesus gave us the gospel, but Satan invented church. It takes serious evil to formalize faith into something tedious and then pile guilt on anyone who doesn't participate enthusiastically. - Robert Kirby

bc_pg
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Re: TR Question Survey - Question 8: Keeping covenants

Post by bc_pg » 11 Jul 2012, 16:18

My guess is that would not be appropriate for this site - you can find the info in about 5 seconds on google though.

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wayfarer
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Re: TR Question Survey - Question 8: Keeping covenants

Post by wayfarer » 11 Jul 2012, 17:12

the secret/sacred parts of the temple include the oaths of secrecy derived from the masonic rites, ironically, and a few other items.

the covenants are available outside. Here is ETB with the explicit list:
Ezra Taft Benson, BYU Devotional, 12 April 1977, wrote:Celestial laws, embodied in certain ordinances belonging to the Church of Jesus Christ, are complied with by voluntary covenants. The laws are spiritual. Thus, our Father in Heaven has ordained certain holy sanctuaries, called temples, in which these laws may be fully explained, the laws include the law of obedience and sacrifice, the law of the gospel, the law of chastity, and the law of consecration.  full talk here
so according to Benson's words:
1. Law of obedience and sacrifice
2. Law of the gospel
3. Law of chastity
4. Law of consecration

but question 8 is about covenants generally, temple covenants are specifically addressed in question 12.
"Those who speak don't know, those who know don't speak." Lao Tzu.
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Curt Sunshine
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Re: TR Question Survey - Question 8: Keeping covenants

Post by Curt Sunshine » 11 Jul 2012, 17:56

There is very little about the temple ceremonies that is prohibited explicitly for discussion outside the temple, regardless of what many members think. I have no problem talking about almost anything relative to the temple (especially since it's been published by multiple anti-Mormon sites AND described in lots of detali by LDS Church leaders (especially Talmage, Nibley and Packer) - but I want it to be in a focused discussion of specific things and done respectfully whenever I discuss those things.

As wayfarer says, this question deals with the overall issue of covenants made and our attempts (striving) to keep them.

Frankly, given the belief most members and leaders have regarding the purpose for and end result of covenants, I have no problem whatsoever with this being a temple recommend question - even as I agree 10000% with bc_pg that our biggest failure as a church community relative to the temple is our unwillingness to talk about the temple in more detail and the lack of good preparation that causes for those attending for the first time.

If we talked more openly about what happens in temples (staying within proper restrictions that, again, are very few), SO much of the angst and negativity would fade away, imo.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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wayfarer
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Re: TR Question Survey - Question 8: Keeping covenants

Post by wayfarer » 11 Jul 2012, 18:22

good points ray.

But again, for this discussion, perhaps it might be useful to talk about the non-temple covenants. Given that a 'covenant' is a two-way promise, what are the covenants members actually make in the church?

This is a two-way covenant we make each week: We promise three things, and the lord promises his Spirit:
Moroni 4:3 wrote:...that they may witness unto thee, O God, the Eternal Father,
that they are willing to take upon them the name of thy Son,
and always remember him,
and keep his commandments which he hath given them,
...that they may always have his Spirit to be with them.
Or upon baptism, at least according to Alma at the waters of mormon:
Mosiah 18:8-9 wrote:As ye are desirous to come into the fold of God, and to be called his people...(that's the lord's side)
and are willing to bear one another's burdens, that they may be light;
Yea, and are willing to mourn with those who mourn;
yea, and comfort those that stand in need of comfort,
and to stand as witnesses of God at all times and in all things,
and in all places that ye may be in, even until death
...(and now god's part:)
that ye may be redeemed of God,
and be numbered with those of the first resurrection,
that ye may have (present tense) eternal life --
...(and the wrap-up)
Now I say unto you, if this be the desire of your hearts,
what have you against being baptized in the name of the Lord,
as a witness before him that he have entered into a covenant with him,
that you will serve and keep his commandments,
that he may pour out his Spirit more abundantly upon you?
Although we frequently point out the commitment to obey commandments, the focus of the baptismal covenant in Mosiah seems more focused on the care we have one for another. And shouldn't that be the case? What are the principle commandments of god (not the church, but of God)?
1. Love the lord thy god with all thy heart might mind and strength, and
2. Love thy neighbor as thyself.
Upon these two hang all the law and prophets.

So, to me, question 8 is entirely about whether we are living the higher laws and covenants of Jesus Christ.

If I were to break this question down, and I know the interviewer isn't allowed to, I would simply ask:

1. Do you love yourself?
2. Do you love God? (1 and 2 are the same thing to me).
3. How are you demonstrating in your daily walk your love for your neighbor?

indeed, I would think that Edward P Kimball's immortal words in the unsung words of "God loved us so he sent his son":
Edward P. Kimball wrote:In word and deed he doth require
My will to his, like son to sire,
Be made to bend, and I as son,
Learn conduct from the Holy One

This sacrament doth represent
His blood and body for me spent.
Partaking now is deed for word,
That I remember Him, my Lord.
For question 8, I think THESE are the relevant covenants.
"Those who speak don't know, those who know don't speak." Lao Tzu.
My seat in the bloggernacle: http://wayfaringfool.blogspot.com

bc_pg
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Re: TR Question Survey - Question 8: Keeping covenants

Post by bc_pg » 11 Jul 2012, 18:28

Excellent point wayfarer - I was on the wrong set of covenants.

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cwald
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Re: TR Question Survey - Question 8: Keeping covenants

Post by cwald » 11 Jul 2012, 19:07

Well. Maybe I need to change my vote. I have no problems with the covenants described in the BOM....the book that contains the fullness of the Gospel.

Where I run into a problem is when the LDS church makes their own list of "pharasicial" shoulds and should not covanents.

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  Jesus gave us the gospel, but Satan invented church. It takes serious evil to formalize faith into something tedious and then pile guilt on anyone who doesn't participate enthusiastically. - Robert Kirby

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wayfarer
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Re: TR Question Survey - Question 8: Keeping covenants

Post by wayfarer » 11 Jul 2012, 19:18

cwald wrote:Well. Maybe I need to change my vote. I have no problems with the covenants described in the BOM....the book that contains the fullness of the Gospel.
you can change your vote now
"Those who speak don't know, those who know don't speak." Lao Tzu.
My seat in the bloggernacle: http://wayfaringfool.blogspot.com

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mercyngrace
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Re: TR Question Survey - Question 8: Keeping covenants

Post by mercyngrace » 11 Jul 2012, 19:30

These threads are so thought provoking.

Am I thinking of another question which specifically mentions wearing garments faithfully? If so, that's why I answered as I did.

I absolutely love this question through the lens of the two great commandments!
Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little. ~ Luke 7:47

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