DarkJedi wrote:In the old days when I first went to the temple (with penalties in the ceremony), I had asked about this question and was told it related to polygamous groups trying to get into the temple for plural marriages, etc. I have always seen it in that light.
That's how it was presented to me as well. The first time I was interviewed the person conducting the interview offered up a similar explanation without me prompting for one. I take it the interviewer thought the question was a strange one to ask or at a minimum they felt the question wasn't very clear. Either way their explanation of the question made it clear that they were steering me to answer "no" to the question.
That said, the experience was long ago and as we know the TR interview evolves. Not only do the questions change over time, but the intent of the question may also change. This question probably relates less and less to polygamy as time distances the church from the practice. Given the challenges today's church faces, I can see how leaders would interpret the question differently.
I don't have access to the handbook, so if this quote is wrong, let me know. But wayfarer's recent post in another thread had current instructions on this question:
3.3.4 Members Whose Close Relatives Belong to Apostate Groups wrote:
Bishops and their counselors must take exceptional care when issuing recommends to members whose parents or other close relatives belong to or sympathize with apostate groups. Such members must demonstrate clearly that they repudiate these apostate religious teachings before they may be issued a recommend.
"Preachers err by trying to talk people into belief; better they reveal the radiance of their own discovery." - Joseph Campbell
"The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes, but in having new eyes." - Marcel Proust
"Therefore they said unto him, How were thine eyes opened? He answered and said unto them, A man that is called Jesus made clay, and anointed my eyes...." - John 9:10-11
DarkJedi wrote:In the old days when I first went to the temple (with penalties in the ceremony), I had asked about this question and was told it related to polygamous groups trying to get into the temple for plural marriages, etc. I have always seen it in that light.
That's how it was presented to me as well. The first time I was interviewed the person conducting the interview offered up a similar explanation without me prompting for one. I take it the interviewer thought the question was a strange one to ask or at a minimum they felt the question wasn't very clear. Either way their explanation of the question made it clear that they were steering me to answer "no" to the question.
That said, the experience was long ago and as we know the TR interview evolves. Not only do the questions change over time, but the intent of the question may also change. This question probably relates less and less to polygamy as time distances the church from the practice. Given the challenges today's church faces, I can see how leaders would interpret the question differently.
I don't have access to the handbook, so if this quote is wrong, let me know. But wayfarer's recent post in another thread had current instructions on this question:
3.3.4 Members Whose Close Relatives Belong to Apostate Groups wrote:
Bishops and their counselors must take exceptional care when issuing recommends to members whose parents or other close relatives belong to or sympathize with apostate groups. Such members must demonstrate clearly that they repudiate these apostate religious teachings before they may be issued a recommend.
Since I'm the only member in my family, this is a non-issue for me.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.
Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."
DarkJedi wrote:Since I'm the only member in my family, this is a non-issue for me.
I went the other direction. As the only member in my family I could probably say that all my family members sympathize with apostate groups.
And to port over my comment from the other thread... depending on how broadly they want to define "apostate group" the parents or other close relatives clause could eventually apply to every member of the church.
I kept a diary right after I was born. Day 1: Tired from the move. Day 2: Everyone thinks I'm an idiot.
— Steven Wright
My oldest daughter is facing this very thing right now. She just completed temple prep classes, she is very much a syllabus follower, this makes temple recommend questions very black and white. She told her dad and I at Christmas that she feels she has to answer "Yes" because her dad is an apostate. It was rather sobering night here at home.
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview
"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman
According to what I've been reading about John Dehlin I am an apostate. I support same sex marriage.
“If a man does not keep pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music which he hears, however measured or far away.” Henry David Thoreau
John is NOT facing excommunication for supporting same-sex marriage. That is important to say and understand. There are lots of members who openly support same-sex marriage who aren't facing excommunication.
John's situation is MUCH more complicated than that.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)
Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken
Old-Timer wrote:John is NOT facing excommunication for supporting same-sex marriage. That is important to say and understand. There are lots of members who openly support same-sex marriage who aren't facing excommunication.
John's situation is MUCH more complicated than that.
I agree with Ray here. The idea that Dehlin is being ex'ed because of his support of LBGT issues and OW is a media invention perhaps fed by Dehlin himself. Who would care if the NYT reported he was being ex'ed because he doesn't believe core doctrines/teachings of the church anymore? Even then, as Ray says, it is much more complicated than that. Only one very vocal leader of OW has been ex'ed. I am not aware of anyone being ex'ed because of support of SSM - and there are some pretty high profile people, such as Steve Young, who are in that position. The media is supported by advertising - they will report what sells. Some individuals are motivated by their 15 minutes of fame, and if the media can help them get that 15 minutes they'll go along for the ride (I am not, however, asserting that this is the case with Dehlin). I do not believe for a minute that the church sees support of SSM or other LGBT issues as apostate.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.
Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."
But I do know of my previous generally very forward thinking (absolutely thought that gay was in no way a sin) took a leader out of a youth leader position because she went to a gay pride parade. So I agree there are not excommunications, but people are told that they are stepping over the line and could be excommunicated or have their recommend yanked. I assume people have heard of the one sister that had to back down the last week or lose her recomm and not be able to attend her brother's wedding. I also loved to hear of a very committed but progressive member at http://athoughtfulfaith.org/bob-rees-po ... dissident/. He tried to quietly not participate in the California prop 8 and DID suffer I think it was disfellowshipment.
LookingHard wrote:But I do know of my previous generally very forward thinking (absolutely thought that gay was in no way a sin) took a leader out of a youth leader position because she went to a gay pride parade. So I agree there are not excommunications, but people are told that they are stepping over the line and could be excommunicated or have their recommend yanked. I assume people have heard of the one sister that had to back down the last week or lose her recomm and not be able to attend her brother's wedding. I also loved to hear of a very committed but progressive member at http://athoughtfulfaith.org/bob-rees-po ... dissident/. He tried to quietly not participate in the California prop 8 and DID suffer I think it was disfellowshipment.
I'm not going to argue with you LH, but there are no witch hunts. It is unfortunate that some local leaders overstep their bounds. I do not believe people are being ex'ed for their own beliefs regarding LGBT issues or even OW (you will note again there has been one excommunication of a very vocal OW leader - and only one). Personally, I think the Q15's stance on whether OW is an apostate group is pretty clear. For me personally, were I to have an OW profile or otherwise support OW, I would not feel as though I could answer this question "no." I understand others may see this differently.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.
Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."