TR Question Survey - Question 7: Affiliating with Apostates

Public forum to discuss questions about Mormon history and doctrine.

Do you support, affilliate, or agree with apostates? [Read question below]

Yes
8
24%
No
26
76%
 
Total votes: 34

Minyan Man
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Re: TR Question Survey - Question 7: Affiliating with Aposta

Post by Minyan Man »

I think you just did.
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mercyngrace
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Re: TR Question Survey - Question 7: Affiliating with Aposta

Post by mercyngrace »

SilentDawning wrote:I think it would be a little interesting in the interview to pose all the vagaries of the question as M&G has. In my case, I'd have to say, "I'm attached at the hip to my parents, who became Evangelical Anti-Mormons after the rift caused by my inability to get a civil and temple wedding on the same day"...does that count?

Of course, I'd never say that.
I think you should say just that. And say it with a smile on your face. ;)

Odds are the interviewer will say "Oh that's not really what the question means. The church just wants to know if you're supporting some offshoot like the FLDS."

Then you smile again and say "Ah. Then No."
Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little. ~ Luke 7:47
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hawkgrrrl
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Re: TR Question Survey - Question 7: Affiliating with Aposta

Post by hawkgrrrl »

The church itself can't correctly say no to this one. We work with other faiths all the time who separate from our thin slice of mutual interest actively seek to undermine us. The church has partnered with evangelicals and others on issues where our interests aren't even that closely aligned, projects like Evergreen. Even the association causes corruption of our own doctrines. Members erroneously believe we are against evolution, are biblical literalists, hate homosexuals, and oppose contraception. I answer the question "no" with a straight face so long as the church can ask it with one.

I'm with Wayfarer that it's poorly worded (I was told in the late 80s that it was narrowly defined to refer to polygamous splinter groups that at the time I didn't know existed). And I also agree with Ray that I don't support or affiliate with anti-Mormon sentiments or their aims.
Old-Timer
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Re: TR Question Survey - Question 7: Affiliating with Aposta

Post by Old-Timer »

The church itself can't correctly say no to this one.


I've actually used that line with someone I know very well - with a :D and a ;) - and then the standard answer, "No."

He appreciated it, but not everyone asking the question would. :lol:
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken
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SilentDawning
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Re: TR Question Survey - Question 7: Affiliating with Aposta

Post by SilentDawning »

M&G, you're inspiring me to get a temple recommend again :) :lol:

Hawkgrrl, I find your comments interesting....one thing I've noticed is that any organization, whether business or religious that claims to be ethical finds itself a target in many respects, being expected to live up to its own ideals. Your assessment of the church's own affiliates is an interesting spin on that phenomenon.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

A man asked Jesus "do all roads lead to you?" Jesus responds,”most roads don’t lead anywhere, but I will travel any road to find you.” Adapted from The Shack, William Young

"The wise man has the power" -- adapted from What A Fool Believes -- The Doobie Brothers
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wayfarer
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Re: TR Question Survey - Question 7: Affiliating with Aposta

Post by wayfarer »

hawkgrrrl wrote:I answer the question "no" with a straight face so long as the church can ask it with one.
The elegance of this sentence has me laughing on the floor.

That said, I find the following verse, coming from Joseph Smith, both incredibly true, and incredibly ironic:
Joseph Smith, in D&C10:28, wrote:Verily, verily, I say unto you, wo be unto him that lieth to deceive because he supposeth that another lieth to deceive, for such are not exempt from the justice of God.
"Those who speak don't know, those who know don't speak." Lao Tzu.
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afterall
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Re: TR Question Survey - Question 7: Affiliating with Aposta

Post by afterall »

I'm very late to this party. I voted No for all of the reasons everyone else shared.
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Brian Johnston
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Re: TR Question Survey - Question 7: Affiliating with Aposta

Post by Brian Johnston »

I answered yes, but that is a literal answer to the question. The question is very flawed. If they mean something else, they should ask a different question. I would tell that to the interviewer in a TR renewal situation. I'm married to a beautiful and wonderful "apostate." So how else could I answer?

Unless we live in a cave with very limited human contact, the vast majority of members (including the highest church leaders) support, affiliates with, and at times agrees with apostates.

I will make the assumption that Ed Decker (of Godmakers fame) liked chocolate ice cream. I like chocolate ice cream too. He's an apostate if there ever was one, and we agree on liking chocolate ice cream. So there you go. I agree with at least one obvious apostate.

If an apostate is right about something of spiritual importance, then I support and agree with them.

I'll take it one step further -- apostates, those who fight against the church, should be seen as souls who are most in need of our love and support. They can't get that unless we affiliate with them. If Jesus were here today, I really doubt you would find him first in the temple or in the conference center. You would find him in the stripper bars, in war zones, and on the drug-pusher street corners. He'd be going after the "lost sheep" and the "prodigal sons" [and daughters] first.
"It's strange to be here. The mystery never leaves you alone." -John O'Donohue, Anam Cara, speaking of experiencing life.
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wayfarer
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Re: TR Question Survey - Question 7: Affiliating with Aposta

Post by wayfarer »

Brian Johnston wrote:I'll take it one step further -- apostates, those who fight against the church, should be seen as souls who are most in need of our love and support. They can't get that unless we affiliate with them. If Jesus were here today, I really doubt you would find him first in the temple or in the conference center. You would find him in the stripper bars, in war zones, and on the drug-pusher street corners. He'd be going after the "lost sheep" and the "prodigal sons" [and daughters] first.
And this is precisely what Jesus meant when he said "Be ye therefore perfect":
Matthew, quoting Jesus, wrote:Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
What does being 'Perfect' have to do with loving enemies? It's because Jesus is saying that we should not be 'partial' to our friends and shun/hate our enemies (there is no scripture saying 'hate', but the jews did have reasons to shun).
Note the reference to Father in heaven providing sun and rain on everyone -- impartially. God is not a partisan, he is not 'partial' to his elect, notwithstanding anything Calvin said. God is not partial, he is the opposite of it, and the greeks used the term "telios" to imply impartiality, or completeness in providing sun and rain to all. The greek word for this 'completeness' is 'telios', which the king James translators translated as 'perfect', in verse 48.

And this is the ultimate irony of LDS obsession with 'purity', with 'perfection': that in the process of trying to be morally and otherwise 'perfect' and 'pure', we are encouraged to avoid influences that might draw us away from that pure world. We shun moral degenerates and apostates because Jesus told us 'Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father in Heaven is perfect."

Affiliating with apostates in love is what it means to be perfect. Let's try it this way:
Modernized Matthew wrote:Ye have heard it said to love your neighbor, but avoid apostates and morally impure people. But I say unto you, love apostates, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the republicans the same?
And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the republicans so?
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Forgive my modernization of 'publican' :-)
"Those who speak don't know, those who know don't speak." Lao Tzu.
My seat in the bloggernacle: http://wayfaringfool.blogspot.com
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Brian Johnston
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Re: TR Question Survey - Question 7: Affiliating with Aposta

Post by Brian Johnston »

wayfarer wrote:Forgive my modernization of 'publican' :-)
Are you trying to claim that Republicans will eventually receive forgiveness? I'm not sure I can buy that. :twisted:
"It's strange to be here. The mystery never leaves you alone." -John O'Donohue, Anam Cara, speaking of experiencing life.
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