TR Question Survey - Question 7: Affiliating with Apostates

Public forum to discuss questions about Mormon history and doctrine.

Do you support, affilliate, or agree with apostates? [Read question below]

Yes
7
21%
No
26
79%
 
Total votes: 33

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wayfarer
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TR Question Survey - Question 7: Affiliating with Apostates

Post by wayfarer » 10 Jul 2012, 03:35

Q7. Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?
Last edited by wayfarer on 10 Jul 2012, 03:41, edited 1 time in total.
"Those who speak don't know, those who know don't speak." Lao Tzu.
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wayfarer
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Re: TR Question Survey - Question 7: Affiliating with Aposta

Post by wayfarer » 10 Jul 2012, 03:39

Before I answer the question for myself, I can say that the intent of this question is to determine if the interviewee is affiliating with apostate groups like the FLDS, Utah Lighthouse Ministries, RfM, and the like.

I appreciated Shawn's humor in asking if StayLDS counts (he put a ;-) next to his question -- it was clearly meant to be humor -- but there are those who might think that StayLDS is in this category -- it is not.

But when I read the question as the words imply, it's a poorly worded question, which implies a formal requirement to shun "any...individual whose...practices are contrary to ...those accepted by the Church". This is not bounded to exmos and anti-mormons. It includes EVERYBODY. For Ray's benefit, I'm going to parse this sentence, using the formal notation of Backus-Naur Form (BNF):
  • Do you {support|affiliate with|agree with}
    ...any {group|individual}
    ...whose {teachings|practices}
    ...{are contrary to|oppose} those accepted by the CoJCoLDS?
Each of the {a|b} constructs are 'or-lists' meaning the question can be parsed to mean any of 162 possible questions, including the following two extremes:
  • a. Do you support any group whose teachings oppose those accepted by the the CoJCoLDS?
    b. Do you affiliate with any individual whose practices are contrary to those accepted by the CoJCoLDS?
These are two completely different things. Since the question includes b as a possible meaning, it expressedly requires that if you have affiliate with any friends, family, relatives, or work associates whose practices are contrary to the Church, you have to say "yes". I can also say that my company sometimes requires practices that are contrary to those accepted by the CoJCoLDS. *

My answer is NO.

It's a lie. outright. I have a daughter whose practices are contrary to those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. She is a lesbian. She drinks. She smokes. Given that there is no "Marriage" option for her, she has sex outside the bounds of marriage often. Yet I support her. I affiliate with her, as often as I possibly can. Sometimes, I even agree with her. I may not agree with her lifestyle -- especially the 'smoking' part, but I definitely support AND affiliate with an individual whose practices are contrary to the church. And, because she is technically still on the roles of the church, and it is not my responsibility to "out" someone, I will answer this question is "NO".

And you know what else? I work with (aka "affiliate with") lots of gay people, people 'living in sin', people who are active preachers of other religions who actively preach against the church in their non-work settings. Do I need to report all of these as well?

I can understand the concept that aiding, abetting, and giving comfort to the enemy can be considered treason, and if I've joined the FLDS, or I'm an active supporter of Utah Lighthouse Ministry, I probably shouldn't be getting a temple recommend. But where utlm is telling the truth, I sometimes agree with them on that specific issue. Hmmm.

* - I deleted the following line from my post: Wait, I'm on a roll...Since any form of deception, including cover-up, is not in harmony with the teachings of the gospel, does supporting and affiliating with church count as a "Yes" too? Oh wait, on that last point, cover-up must be ok because it is accepted by the CoJCoLDS... (ray you can delete this last comment :-) )
"Those who speak don't know, those who know don't speak." Lao Tzu.
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SilentDawning
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Re: TR Question Survey - Question 7: Affiliating with Aposta

Post by SilentDawning » 10 Jul 2012, 05:14

Another grey area here. Personally, I think I can answer the question with a resounding "No", although at times I've thought of joining another church just to have a different community experience and to experience the good in other churches. Would that preclude me from answering "no" to this question in your humble opinion? And if you think it might, if all churches contain "good" and we only add to the good of other churches. what's wrong with joining another church that teaches a subset of the good principles we find in the LDS Church?

Adn I don't consider StayLDS an apostate group by any means. Unorthodox -- yes, but apostate? No.

In fact, I may well belong to another church -- never checked -- I was raised and baptized in a church when I was a youngster and to my knowledge, never repudiated my membership in that church when I joined the LDS Church. Wouldn't surprise me if many new and old converts fall into that category.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

A man asked Jesus "do all roads lead to you?" Jesus responds,”most roads don’t lead anywhere, but I will travel any road to find you.” Adapted from The Shack, William Young

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mercyngrace
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Re: TR Question Survey - Question 7: Affiliating with Aposta

Post by mercyngrace » 10 Jul 2012, 06:06

I read this question as asking if I support apostate groups specifically in their efforts to undermine or destroy the church or to lead members from the church.

This is the definition I use because I've jokingly responded dozens of different ways over the years:

- Well, I voted Republican last fall.
- Do my in-laws count? I'm convinced they are close friends with Satan.
- There was a large group of drunk rednecks cursing God and carrying on at our last family reunion but I pretended I didn't know them so I think I'm safe.
- I read Rough Stone Rolling but in fairness, I bought it at Deseret Book.

Invariably, I get a smile, maybe a chuckle, and a clarifying response that allows me to answer No.

I don't affiliate with apostate groups because affiliate means to be officially attached or connected to, it's means to be in the "brotherhood". Because I don't share the same values, lifestyles, and beliefs of any organized group of apostates, I'm fine answering No.
Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little. ~ Luke 7:47

Minyan Man
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Re: TR Question Survey - Question 7: Affiliating with Aposta

Post by Minyan Man » 10 Jul 2012, 07:08

My answer is no. It is no because I live a very sheltered life. I would like to talk with some of people in these other groups. Not because I want to join but, I'm curious what makes them tick. I've always been that way. I'm not going to change.

wayfarer, you said:
My answer is NO.

It's a lie. outright. I have a daughter whose practices are contrary to those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. She is a lesbian. She drinks. She smokes. Given that there is no "Marriage" option for her, she has sex outside the bounds of marriage often. Yet I support her. I affiliate with her, as often as I possibly can. Sometimes, I even agree with her. I may not agree with her lifestyle -- especially the 'smoking' part, but I definitely support AND affiliate with an individual whose practices are contrary to the church.
I don't believe that this is what this question is looking for. If it was, we all would have to answer, yes.
I remember in the "old" days, I went to a bar to "home teach" a friend of mine. I told my Bishop & he was fine with it.
Alittle surprised but fine.

Mike from Milton.

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wayfarer
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Re: TR Question Survey - Question 7: Affiliating with Aposta

Post by wayfarer » 10 Jul 2012, 07:36

Mike wrote:I don't believe that this is what this question is looking for. If it was, we all would have to answer, yes.
Agreed on both counts. In this case, saying "No" answers the intent of the question, but not the letter of the question. In other cases, we answer the letter of the question, even if the intent may be different. I find that to be a little inconsistent.

For example, I don't believe the traditional or LDS definition of the godhead, but I believe in 'god', 'jesus christ' and 'holy ghost' as names for parts of the inspiration process. Since the question isn't do I accept and believe the LDS definition of godhead, I answer the letter, even if the intent is to see if I have an orthodox belief.

In this case, the intent is to see if I am aiding and abetting the enemies of the church, which of course I am not, but that's not the letter of the question. So if I answer "no", i'm answer the intent, not the letter.
Mike wrote:I remember in the "old" days, I went to a bar to "home teach" a friend of mine. I told my Bishop & he was fine with it.
That's an interesting place for a friend of Bill's to be... :wtf: I understand completely...
"Those who speak don't know, those who know don't speak." Lao Tzu.
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cwald
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Re: TR Question Survey - Question 7: Affiliating with Aposta

Post by cwald » 10 Jul 2012, 07:41

NO.

However, I must say, in Shawn's defense, that there are many MANY members of the church who do believe that John Dehlin is an apostate, and those who associate with him via Mormonstories, Mormonstories facebook groups and conferences, and StayLDS, are in fact "apostates" and affiliating with apostate groups.

If you doubt me, spend some time in Cache Valley. Or simple check out the MDB, MDDB or LDS.net boards. Right now there is at least a eight threads talking about JD just at MDB...and that is nothing compared to what happened at MDDB that last two weeks.
  Jesus gave us the gospel, but Satan invented church. It takes serious evil to formalize faith into something tedious and then pile guilt on anyone who doesn't participate enthusiastically. - Robert Kirby

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Re: TR Question Survey - Question 7: Affiliating with Aposta

Post by Curt Sunshine » 10 Jul 2012, 08:06

No.

I read a question that implies an entire focus that is anti-Mormon. "Teachings" in the sentence is plural and all-inclusive, and I have nothing to do with those groups that is supportive in any way. I'll talk with them, if they can remain civil, but I don't support, affiliate with or agree with them in their single-minded opposition to the LDS Church.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

Nephite

Re: TR Question Survey - Question 7: Affiliating with Aposta

Post by Nephite » 10 Jul 2012, 10:32

I think the word "affiliate" here means to "Officially attach or connect (a subsidiary group or a person) to an organization." (Link) So that does away with the concern with merely hanging out with people who disagree with or oppose the church.

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SilentDawning
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Re: TR Question Survey - Question 7: Affiliating with Aposta

Post by SilentDawning » 10 Jul 2012, 12:01

I think it would be a little interesting in the interview to pose all the vagaries of the question as M&G has. In my case, I'd have to say, "I'm attached at the hip to my parents, who became Evangelical Anti-Mormons after the rift caused by my inability to get a civil and temple wedding on the same day"...does that count?

Of course, I'd never say that.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

A man asked Jesus "do all roads lead to you?" Jesus responds,”most roads don’t lead anywhere, but I will travel any road to find you.” Adapted from The Shack, William Young

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