TR Question Survey - Question 4: Sustaining LDS Leadership

Public forum to discuss questions about Mormon history and doctrine.

Do you sustain LDS leadership as noted below in the full question?

Yes
19
66%
No
10
34%
 
Total votes: 29

Curt Sunshine
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Re: TR Question Survey - Question 4: Sustaining LDS Leadersh

Post by Curt Sunshine » 08 Jul 2012, 15:59

Shawn's answer to this question:
Yes. I met Thomas S. Monson and shook his hand and I believe he is the prophet today. I sustain all the other apostles and other leaders. I have been blessed with good men as bishops and I am thankful for that.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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Bruce in Montana
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Re: TR Question Survey - Question 4: Sustaining LDS Leadersh

Post by Bruce in Montana » 08 Jul 2012, 18:35

An emphatic NO.

God calls prophets...people call "Church presidents".

Are we to assume that when the church was organized, that if Joseph Smith was not sustained by the members as a prophet, seer, and revelator that he would somehow cease to be one?

I think he made it clear in one of his last speeches when he asked (paraphrasing) "Will you die for me, I'll die for you".
The people sustained him and he replied (paraphrasing again") "Good...if you hadn't, I would go there (pointing toward the Rocky Mountains), and raise up another people".

This pompous idea that the church membership somehow controls God's choice in prophets is...IMHO...ugly.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
-William S.

BobDixon
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Joined: 09 Jan 2009, 06:19

Re: TR Question Survey - Question 4: Sustaining LDS Leadersh

Post by BobDixon » 08 Jul 2012, 19:34

I haven't answered the question yet and am still thinking about it.

On one hand I can answer this question in the abstract sense. Do I feel any other men are entitled to these leadership positions? i.e. Warren Jeffs, Billy Graham, etc. No. Do I grant Tom Monson control over the PH keys? That's a hard one, because under the current system I can never go to the temple again, despite my well-meaning attempt to follow the Spirit. On the other hand, is there some other I would propose to hold those keys? No. Do I wish Tom Monson and all the others well and support them in the righteous exercise of their authority? Absolutely. Would I pray for them? Absolutely.

Do I really think they have the right to tell women how many earrings to wear or whether they can wear flipflops to church? No. Ultimately I can support their well-meaning attempts to run the church in ways I disagree with, but ultimately I just don't think they have the authority they claim. I think they should be in a position to suggest and to offer counsel on many things, but not to dictate.

So maybe I don't.

My local leaders? I support them unequivocally.

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cwald
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Re: TR Question Survey - Question 4: Sustaining LDS Leadersh

Post by cwald » 09 Jul 2012, 20:26

Bruce in Montana wrote:An emphatic NO.

God calls prophets...people call "Church presidents".

Are we to assume that when the church was organized, that if Joseph Smith was not sustained by the members as a prophet, seer, and revelator that he would somehow cease to be one?

I think he made it clear in one of his last speeches when he asked (paraphrasing) "Will you die for me, I'll die for you".
The people sustained him and he replied (paraphrasing again") "Good...if you hadn't, I would go there (pointing toward the Rocky Mountains), and raise up another people".

This pompous idea that the church membership somehow controls God's choice in prophets is...IMHO...ugly.

I really really like this answer.

Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk 2
  Jesus gave us the gospel, but Satan invented church. It takes serious evil to formalize faith into something tedious and then pile guilt on anyone who doesn't participate enthusiastically. - Robert Kirby

rebeccad
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Joined: 10 Jul 2012, 10:36

Re: TR Question Survey - Question 4: Sustaining LDS Leadersh

Post by rebeccad » 12 Jul 2012, 06:44

I don't know. I really struggle with this one. I will sustain them until they tell me to do something I think is wrong.

So is that really sustaining them? Or do I need to trust in their guidance more than my own to count as sustaining?
"The very same people who are good sometimes are the very same people who are bad sometimes, it's funny but it's true" -Fred Rogers

doug
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Re: TR Question Survey - Question 4: Sustaining LDS Leadersh

Post by doug » 12 Jul 2012, 06:54

rebeccad wrote:I don't know. I really struggle with this one. I will sustain them until they tell me to do something I think is wrong.

So is that really sustaining them? Or do I need to trust in their guidance more than my own to count as sustaining?
You can still "sustain" them when they tell you to do something you think is wrong, but that doesn't mean you have to do what they say.
The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also. -- Mark Twain

Curt Sunshine
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Re: TR Question Survey - Question 4: Sustaining LDS Leadersh

Post by Curt Sunshine » 12 Jul 2012, 08:25

rebeccad, I really do believe that part of complete sustaining is helping people realize when they are wrong - and it's listed as one of the definitions wayfarer posted in the OP.

That takes quiet, humble, meek confidence - but I really do believe it. I know I want to be sustained in that way when I'm a leader.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

bc_pg
Posts: 175
Joined: 24 May 2012, 11:07

Re: TR Question Survey - Question 4: Sustaining LDS Leadersh

Post by bc_pg » 12 Jul 2012, 09:38

I don't know. I really struggle with this one. I will sustain them until they tell me to do something I think is wrong.

So is that really sustaining them? Or do I need to trust in their guidance more than my own to count as sustaining?
One thought on this.

In the temple there is a promise to follow someone if they are following the Lord. I think the same principle applies here.

If the leader is telling you something that is out of accordance with the church then they are not sustaining their leaders. If that is the case I do not believe you are under obligation to follow them.

For example the church teaches that it's role is to teach principles and let people govern themselves. If a leader is doing otherwise they are not in accordance with church teachings and you are not under any obligation.

However, if you were to take that problem and start gossiping to all your neighbors, friends, family what a louse the leader is, at that point you would probably have clearly crossed the line. Again the D&C gives a good formula that if you have an issue with someone you should deal with it privately. Being a "yes" man or woman isn't the same thing as sustaining, IMO.

BobDixon
Posts: 42
Joined: 09 Jan 2009, 06:19

Re: TR Question Survey - Question 4: Sustaining LDS Leadersh

Post by BobDixon » 12 Jul 2012, 10:48

We may define "sustain" in many ways, but I believe this is indicative of the working definition the church uses:

http://www.heraldextra.com/news/opinion ... c1239.html

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cwald
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Re: TR Question Survey - Question 4: Sustaining LDS Leadersh

Post by cwald » 12 Jul 2012, 10:59

BobDixon wrote:We may define "sustain" in many ways, but I believe this is indicative of the working definition the church uses:

http://www.heraldextra.com/news/opinion ... c1239.html
The pressure came in the form of what church leaders called an "invitation" to show religious loyalty. Regardless what objections an individual Mormon resident might have about the MTC development and its impact on an established local neighborhood, church members were rather unceremoniously cracked into line to support the project through language that Mormons understand to be more than mere suggestion. They were asked to "sustain" their leaders.

What makes this particularly remarkable is that neighbors had been expressly told by church leaders that they were free to treat the MTC building height controversy as a secular, non-religious, issue. They were told by their stake president that they were free to engage in the civic process without fear of affecting their church standing.

And that is, in fact, what they were doing: responding to encouragement to be actively engaged in civic affairs.

The sharp reversal by the church last week -- its turning a civic matter into a test of religious faith -- sends a clear message: Be engaged, but only so long as you don't contradict us...
So, here is a valid question. If the people in those stakes don't back down and continue to protest the MTC building plans...ARE THEY SUSTAINING THEIR LEADERS?

PS. I'm not changing my vote yet...it's still no for the time being.
  Jesus gave us the gospel, but Satan invented church. It takes serious evil to formalize faith into something tedious and then pile guilt on anyone who doesn't participate enthusiastically. - Robert Kirby

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