yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes!!!!wayfarer wrote:Wow, Bob, I really appreciate your response -- It's quite distinct from my point of view, but I've gained a lot from your insight. Just to be clear, is that a "yes" or a "no" on the question of "atonement"?
TR Question Survey - Question 2: Atonement
Re: TR Question Survey - Question 2: Atonement
Re: TR Question Survey - Question 2: Atonement
im trying hard to not judge others in the church who are working on their things, but, Bob, you expressed this in a way I identify with, and it has been my experience when talking with members. Their strong faith in the Church often leads to statements like "you NEED the Church to be saved, there is no other way". It may be a slight nuance, but in my opinion, an important thing to clarify the difference between the need for the Atonement, and the role of the Church.BobDixon wrote:I think the problem many Latter-day Saints have is that they dumb down the atonement and Jesus' sacrifice on the cross.
[snip]
I don't think most LDS see it that way. They believe their mere cultural conversion to the LDS church and having sat through some ordinances is what justifies them before God.
There is no such thing as a saving ordinance. What saves is the core knowledge that you need a savior because of your intractable imperfections, that Savior is Jesus, and the atonement is what makes eternal life possible.
me too. I truly believe that was a big reason God knew I needed to journey. I was a doing pretty well in the Church and serving on the High Council and other callings, but I think I was ready to learn some new things, and for me, for some reason, I needed to look outside to be humbled and gain a deeper perspective of Christ and the Atonement. And I have been able to come back to the Church with deeper appreciation for it. I still have lots of work to do to understand how to best apply it in my life, but I think sometimes we need the spiritual walk-about for some things.I had to go outside the church to really understand the atonement and to actually be able to find it inside the church, because before I didn't really know what to look for.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Bob!
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."
Re: TR Question Survey - Question 2: Atonement
Well said, Bob.
As you articulated, what you described is there in the Church and its teachings, but it often gets covered by the culture that builds hedges around the core power of the Atonement. When Pres. Uchtdorf (and, ironically for many here, Pres. Packer quite often) talks about the culture getting in the way of the Gospel, they are talking about exactly what you just said.
As you articulated, what you described is there in the Church and its teachings, but it often gets covered by the culture that builds hedges around the core power of the Atonement. When Pres. Uchtdorf (and, ironically for many here, Pres. Packer quite often) talks about the culture getting in the way of the Gospel, they are talking about exactly what you just said.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)
Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken
Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken
Re: TR Question Survey - Question 2: Atonement
Oddly enough Pres Packer has a Darth Vader reputation out here on the edges of the church's doctrinal campfire, but I usually like his talks. There's been a thread running other places about Pres Monson's dementia and about Packer's attempt to have him declared President emeritus so he can take over, but I think he would be a good president. People were terrified of Ezra Taft Benson, but in general he seemed to put the general welfare of the church above his own ultra-conservative leanings.Old-Timer wrote: As you articulated, what you described is there in the Church and its teachings, but it often gets covered by the culture that builds hedges around the core power of the Atonement. When Pres. Uchtdorf (and, ironically for many here, Pres. Packer quite odten) talk about the culture getting in the way of the Gospel, they are talking about exactly what you just said.
The thing about Packer is he would be a prophet and shake things up and not just be a PR guy or "stay the course". I would rather have a prophet who stood for something I disagreed with than a "stay the course" guy who let others do his public dirty work.
Re: TR Question Survey - Question 2: Atonement
Yes, I have a testimony of the Atonement of Christ and of His role as Saviour and Redeemer
The problem was that my training in repentance was focused on sins and not a general state of inadequacy. My bishop and others told me that I had done nothing wrong. While true, this did nothing to help unlock the guilt in my heart.
One day I was attending a Baptist worship service and the worship song touched me. I remember the words, "What should I say?...What should I do?...I give my heart, O God, completely to you." This meant so much to me. If only there was a formula that I could follow to never let anyone down again, I would say anything – do anything – to obtain it. But it was not so. When the time for the altar call came I came up to the stage and prayed for forgiveness for my inadequacy. I prayed for mercy and grace to cover my nakedness and I received peace.
Bringing this back to the LDS church, I have found new meaning in Alma 7:12
Charity is the "pure love of Christ." President Monson has described charity as follows: “Charity is having patience with someone who has let us down…It is accepting weaknesses and shortcomings…. It is accepting people as they truly are.” I believe that my Saviour employs charity perfectly in His dealings with me.
How does this all relate to a literal figure dying on a cross? I'm not sure - some things seem to apply but other things don't. The Atonement for me has become about self acceptance or adopting my Saviour’s perspective - a more forgiving and loving, charitable view of myself and others.
Ray once said:
bc_pg - please allow me to springboard off of your comments for my own. When my daughter was stillborn I had a lot of guilt. I felt deep down (below the level that deals in logic) that I should have foreseen and somehow prevented this outcome. I was inadequate to be what my daughter needed from me and I needed forgiveness for this failure in order to let it go.The idea that something is a "sin" in the first place increases the guilt and difficulty in forgiving myself.
Conversely, the idea that I'm just a person and that although I believe morality and ethics is important, not being accountable to a higher power and not having the pressure of "being perfect even as I am perfect" makes it easier for me to forgive myself. In a sense the whole concept of repentance goes away - in a positive way. It turns into living life and accepting that who I am is who I am and that is good enough.
The problem was that my training in repentance was focused on sins and not a general state of inadequacy. My bishop and others told me that I had done nothing wrong. While true, this did nothing to help unlock the guilt in my heart.
One day I was attending a Baptist worship service and the worship song touched me. I remember the words, "What should I say?...What should I do?...I give my heart, O God, completely to you." This meant so much to me. If only there was a formula that I could follow to never let anyone down again, I would say anything – do anything – to obtain it. But it was not so. When the time for the altar call came I came up to the stage and prayed for forgiveness for my inadequacy. I prayed for mercy and grace to cover my nakedness and I received peace.
Bringing this back to the LDS church, I have found new meaning in Alma 7:12
I had always understood infirmities to mean diseases or afflictions - but one of the definitions is "softness." I am soft, I am limited, I am inadequate - call it my "fallen state," call it the "human condition," but what it means is that I can never be so "firm" that I will never let anyone else down -sometimes fatally so.he will take upon him their infirmities, that his bowels may be filled with mercy, according to the flesh, that he may know according to the flesh how to succor his people according to their infirmities.
Charity is the "pure love of Christ." President Monson has described charity as follows: “Charity is having patience with someone who has let us down…It is accepting weaknesses and shortcomings…. It is accepting people as they truly are.” I believe that my Saviour employs charity perfectly in His dealings with me.
How does this all relate to a literal figure dying on a cross? I'm not sure - some things seem to apply but other things don't. The Atonement for me has become about self acceptance or adopting my Saviour’s perspective - a more forgiving and loving, charitable view of myself and others.
Ray once said:
bc_pg – I believe that you may have arrived at a similar peaceful situation travelling from the opposite direction (other side of the coin). I believe that I had to approach this “Atonement/self acceptance” from the angle that I do because of my starting position. However you may get there, it seems to be a good place. Perhaps the joy under this “Tree of life” is big enough to encompass many interpretations. Pull up a chair and stay awhile. Can you pass me some more “precious fruit?”You start this repentance by ceasing to try to lessen who you are (eliminate part of yourself) and allowing your Saviour to increase who you are. In short, this kind of repentance is to "lose (your view of) yourself" and "find (His view of) yourself".
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood
“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223
"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13
“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223
"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13
Re: TR Question Survey - Question 2: Atonement
@Roy
I was thinking as Alma 7 as I was reading your comments - so it made a lot of sense when you referenced it. I'm glad that resonated so strongly with you. I think it's great that it gave you that level of comfort.
I was thinking as Alma 7 as I was reading your comments - so it made a lot of sense when you referenced it. I'm glad that resonated so strongly with you. I think it's great that it gave you that level of comfort.