I always appreciate it when we say "I don't know why", or "I don't know how". We feel it. It's real to US. The words used in scripture and hymn are extraordinarily powerful and overwhelming. To meditate on the Savior during sacrament and partake of the emblems is profoundly meaningful. Really, nothing else matters.Shawn wrote:I'm not sure why the Plan of Salvation has panned out this way, why Jesus needed to come down and suffer for us. I don't know exactly how it works, but I know the Atonement is real. Surely He hath borne my griefs, and carried my sorrows. He was wounded for my transgressions, he was bruised for my iniquities, and with his stripes I am healed.
TR Question Survey - Question 2: Atonement
Re: TR Question Survey - Question 2: Atonement
"Those who speak don't know, those who know don't speak." Lao Tzu.
My seat in the bloggernacle: http://wayfaringfool.blogspot.com
My seat in the bloggernacle: http://wayfaringfool.blogspot.com
Re: TR Question Survey - Question 2: Atonement
Yes.
Like BC, my comments would be redundant from what I said in regards to question 1.
Like BC, my comments would be redundant from what I said in regards to question 1.
Jesus gave us the gospel, but Satan invented church. It takes serious evil to formalize faith into something tedious and then pile guilt on anyone who doesn't participate enthusiastically. - Robert Kirby
- mercyngrace
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Re: TR Question Survey - Question 2: Atonement
An unqualified yes from me.
I love all the previous comments. The atonement is, for me, ultimately the path to reconciliation. Motivated by pure love, we bear burdens, often unjustly, abasing ourselves to help others realize their exalted station. In so doing, our love, compassion, and mercy change forgiven and forgiver .
Beautifully simple, beautifully effective.
I love all the previous comments. The atonement is, for me, ultimately the path to reconciliation. Motivated by pure love, we bear burdens, often unjustly, abasing ourselves to help others realize their exalted station. In so doing, our love, compassion, and mercy change forgiven and forgiver .
Beautifully simple, beautifully effective.
Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little. ~ Luke 7:47
Re: TR Question Survey - Question 2: Atonement
This helped me to figure out how to say something I was thinking.The atonement is, for me, ultimately the path to reconciliation. Motivated by pure love, we bear burdens, often unjustly, abasing ourselves to help others realize their exalted station. In so doing, our love, compassion, and mercy change forgiven and forgiver .
In my mind making a God hurt because of something we did increases our guilt instead of assuaging it.
If the atonement is a metaphor for forgiving ourselves I can see the value.
For me personally the metaphor is hurtful not helpful. The idea that something is a "sin" in the first place increases the guilt and difficulty in forgiving myself.
Conversely, the idea that I'm just a person and that although I believe morality and ethics is important, not being accountable to a higher power and not having the pressure of "being perfect even as I am perfect" makes it easier for me to forgive myself. In a sense the whole concept of repentance goes away - in a positive way. It turns into living life and accepting that who I am is who I am and that is good enough.
I think other people get to that exact same comfort level with themselves using the atonement metaphor. For me it was an impediment not a help.
Does that make any sense at all?
I also am someone that does not naturally hold grudges much - either against myself or
others so maybe that is part of why it doesn't resonate with me?
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Also I think the true value of Christianity is it's message of how me treat and interact with others. I see the fixation on the atonement being central as an impediment to as Paul said "pure religion".
Re: TR Question Survey - Question 2: Atonement
Yes that makes sense.
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Jesus gave us the gospel, but Satan invented church. It takes serious evil to formalize faith into something tedious and then pile guilt on anyone who doesn't participate enthusiastically. - Robert Kirby
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Re: TR Question Survey - Question 2: Atonement
bc_pg, it make sense to me too.
When you say:
Thanks.
Mike from Milton.
When you say:
I've never thought of it this way.In my mind making a God hurt because of something we did increases our guilt instead of assuaging it.
Thanks.
Mike from Milton.
Re: TR Question Survey - Question 2: Atonement
making a God hurt because of something we did
Fwiw, my take - after saying how much I appreciate DEEPLY your comment:
"Ye are gods."
We make gods hurt all the time, every day - especially those we love the most.
For me, it's NOT just the idea of an Atonement that resonates; it's the combination of the idea that we really are gods in a very powerful way - and that we suck at it - but that it's OK - because one of us (another God) showed us that it's possible to hurt the gods around us less and less each day. He showed us a path to freedom - to become more than our nature - to be godly - to be gods.
I see the Atonement as the power that under-girds our morality and over-rides our natural mortality and teaches us that we really can be and become more than just smart animals as much as I see it in any other way. To me, in a very real way, it says:
"It's OK if you aren't the fittest animal in the pack. It's OK if you suffer for innumerable reasons. It's OK if life's not fair and just and equitable. It's OK. It's OK. It's OK. Peace I leave with you, my child."
I really don't care about the exact "nature" of this concept. I care DEEPLY about the message I take from it. There are lots of things in this life that suck, including me sometimes, but, in the end . . .
It's OK.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)
Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken
Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken
Re: TR Question Survey - Question 2: Atonement
Ray - that actually makes a lot of sense to me - fairly close to how I think about things in many ways.
- mercyngrace
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Re: TR Question Survey - Question 2: Atonement
bc_pg,
I find it useful to think of sin and virtue in terms of words, thoughts, and deeds that either injure and alienate or heal and unite.
The garden and the cross weren't about punishment, although that imagery is specifically used in the scriptures. These acts were both instructive, showing us how to heal the rifts in our relationships, and justifying, allowing the Savior to claim the rights of mercy and advocate based on his perfect virtue for each of us. He alone, the one without sin, can shame our accusers. Since we accuse each other, His willingness to extend mercy to each of us, undeserving though we are, along with His sinlessness, makes Him the intermediary for each and every one of us. He validates our worth, confirms our ability to progress and change, and compWhetherels us to see the value and redemptive possibilities of others.
The scriptures use a punishment metaphor because it appeals to our innate sense of fairness. When we suffer unjustly, we ask "Why me?". When we are asked to do more than our part, we say "That's not fair." When a toddler hits another, the first cries out and typically responds in kind. This is our carnal nature.
God as Whipping Boy satisfies our need for justice until we come to understand that the real power is not freedom from deserved consequences but the grace that changes us as we see our potential through God's eyes.
I find it useful to think of sin and virtue in terms of words, thoughts, and deeds that either injure and alienate or heal and unite.
The garden and the cross weren't about punishment, although that imagery is specifically used in the scriptures. These acts were both instructive, showing us how to heal the rifts in our relationships, and justifying, allowing the Savior to claim the rights of mercy and advocate based on his perfect virtue for each of us. He alone, the one without sin, can shame our accusers. Since we accuse each other, His willingness to extend mercy to each of us, undeserving though we are, along with His sinlessness, makes Him the intermediary for each and every one of us. He validates our worth, confirms our ability to progress and change, and compWhetherels us to see the value and redemptive possibilities of others.
The scriptures use a punishment metaphor because it appeals to our innate sense of fairness. When we suffer unjustly, we ask "Why me?". When we are asked to do more than our part, we say "That's not fair." When a toddler hits another, the first cries out and typically responds in kind. This is our carnal nature.
God as Whipping Boy satisfies our need for justice until we come to understand that the real power is not freedom from deserved consequences but the grace that changes us as we see our potential through God's eyes.
Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little. ~ Luke 7:47