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Re: World Wide Training: CHI is Doctrine

Posted: 13 Feb 2011, 07:08
by Brian Johnston
SilentDawning wrote: 1. Elder Oakes said the CHI is doctrine.
2. Elder Holland said it is "based on doctrine".
3. Someone stood up and said it was doctrine.
Ray Degraw wrote:In the training in November, it was stated clearly that the CHI is NOT doctrine.
... and I would like to add that the most important doctrine to remember is that doctrine never changes. It is eternally fixed as the laws of heaven. :lol:

Re: World Wide Training: CHI is Doctrine

Posted: 13 Feb 2011, 07:20
by Brian Johnston
Now for my serious answer:

There's doctrine ... and then there's doctrine. It depends on what we mean when we say something is "doctrine." I would say they are using that term loosely in reference to the CHI. In their usage, they are talking about:

"something that is taught" or "a principle of law established through past decisions" (Merriam-Websters online)

So yes. The CHI is church doctrine as in it details the policies and positions of "church law" that will be used right now to govern the organization. What I think we are all getting upset about is conflating the CHI with what we think of as "Official Doctrine" that we really see more as immutable truths (as Ray put it).

Official Doctrine, canonized and accepted by the body of the Church:
The essence of the Gospel is to have faith, repent, be baptized and to receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost. <<----- That is very unlikely to ever change. It is an immutable truth within the Church. This was true 2,000 years ago. It is true today.

Church policy (guiding doctrines to govern the church):
The CHI is "doctrine" :-) Don't wear flip flops to church (local doctrine). Deacons serving the sacrament should wear a tie. etc. etc.

Re: World Wide Training: CHI is Doctrine

Posted: 13 Feb 2011, 09:41
by SilentDawning
To extend Brian's comment, I think there is worth in describing doctrines which are essential for salvation, and those that are not. If you want to call the ENTIRE CHI doctrine, that's fine, but just how critical are many of its parts for salvation? If you proclaim that the CHI is doctrine, then I think the it's a fair statement that doctrine goes beyond principles necessary for salvation, which are centered on right-living and ordinances.

Much of the CHI focuses on procedures and best-practices, which in my view have little or direct bearing on salvation at all. Ultimately, it's salvation that matters, not whether you followed established rules of execution, which aren't applicable to all situations anyway! So, if you define the entire CHI as doctrine, then that opens up a can of worms about what is inviolate and what is not....

I think it's better for the Church as a whole to have a narrow definition of what constitutes doctrine so bedrock principles are distinguished from "flexible" ones.

Re: World Wide Training: CHI is Doctrine

Posted: 13 Feb 2011, 10:01
by mercyngrace
Turns out the word used was "DOCTRINAL" meaning rooted in doctrine which gives some internal consistency to the talks. The news section at lds.org has the quote, I think. I read it last night.

After reading the news report, seems like much less of an issue to me.

Re: World Wide Training: CHI is Doctrine

Posted: 13 Feb 2011, 10:45
by SilentDawning
mercyngrace wrote:After reading the news report, seems like much less of an issue to me.
I think it would be a non-issue for me, but the What is Doctrine article on the front page of this website has prompted us to talk about it at different times. The intent of the article appears to distinguish between firm commandments and principles that are inviolate, and those aspects of our religion which are more flexible and policy-based. Presumably, this would help reduce the angst people feel about every aspect of their experience in the Church being scripted.

So, one reason this is a bit of an issue to some of us at this site is the conditioning and discussions we've had on this point. I personally agree with Cadence above, that in the end, it doesn't matter because doctrine and CHI both create culture together, and many members do not distinguish between the two when deciding what to believe or do.

For me, it has a bit of significance on the subject of tithing. For some time, I believed that the description in the scriptures -- 10% of our INCREASE was the guiding principle, and provided a certain amount of flexibility in its definition. We also discussed the 1970-ish FP letter stating that tithing is 10% of our INCOME, and that letter was deemed as non-doctrinable, to be taken under advisement rather than as a firm command. So, there are SOME implications to some of us about the distinction between doctrine and mere policy that hasn't been formally put to the Church as a form of doctrine. At least, on the issue of tithing, that matters to me. The CHI quotes the 1970's FP letter as the definition of tithing, I believe -- at least, the old one did -- so the statement that the CHI is doctrine removes personal judgment from defining the amount on which one pays their 10%.

See how this could be construed as more relevant than we think on this particular issue (tithing). On other issues, I think the distinction is meaningless, but the Church really emphasizes tithing, so, this has me concerned.

Re: World Wide Training: CHI is Doctrine

Posted: 13 Feb 2011, 20:26
by Fatherof4husbandof1
SilentDawning wrote...
The distinction between doctrine and mere policy is starting to become very blurry.
Surely God is not the author of all this confusion? He most definatly is not! imo

f4h1

Re: World Wide Training: CHI is Doctrine

Posted: 14 Feb 2011, 06:46
by Cadence
Fatherof4husbandof1 wrote:
Surely God is not the author of all this confusion? He most definatly is not! imo

f4h1
Just perhaps all this doctrine and policy is just made up and we truly strain at a gnat and swallow a camel.

Re: World Wide Training: CHI is Doctrine

Posted: 14 Feb 2011, 08:04
by Orson
Fatherof4husbandof1 wrote:Surely God is not the author of all this confusion? He most definatly is not! imo

f4h1

I agree. Humans set policy, humans interpret doctrine. Mortals are perfectly capable of creating confusion all on their own.

Re: World Wide Training: CHI is Doctrine

Posted: 14 Feb 2011, 09:18
by SilentDawning
Cadence wrote:
Fatherof4husbandof1 wrote:Just perhaps all this doctrine and policy is just made up and we truly strain at a gnat and swallow a camel.
Candence I chuckled both times I read this. The whole thing become a lot easier is you just write it off as "all made up!!!". That really is the bit question for most people. "Is it all made up?"

Re: World Wide Training: CHI is Doctrine

Posted: 14 Feb 2011, 13:46
by Curt Sunshine
All made up? I don't think so.

All interpreted? I can accept that.

To me, there's a difference, and it actually is important, imo.