Sometimes I hate when I'm right

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cwald
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Sometimes I hate when I'm right

Post by cwald » 24 Jan 2011, 09:50

I need some help quick. The HC is asking me for "proof" that Benson's 14 fundamental speech was censored by President Kimball and that he was asked to apologize for giving it at the BYU devotional. They don't believe me. Does anyone have a document or know where I can get it from a "church source."

I will tell you the whole story later when I have time. Needless to say, I did not have a good Sunday, and sometimes I REALLY hate when I'm right --- Costa and Oaks talks WILL haunt many members for years to come.

EDIT

Okay, I have a minute.

Once again, I don't know why I do this to myself. Yesterday was HC day. The first guy talked about JS and the first vision. The second guy talks about 'folling the prophet." He started slow on my by saying stuff like how JS or BY never gave a prophecy that didn't come true. I leaned over to jwald and said, "what about his claim that blacks would never received the priesthood?" Anyway, it went WAY downhill from there. He didn't only quote Costa's 14 Fundalmentals of the Prophet, but ADDED his own commentary and interpretation, as well as some Oaks comments about the two lines of communication and if your personal line is not the same as the priesthood line than it is from the wrong source, (I leaned over and asked jwald, "isn't that exactly what the other guy said about the ministers saying to JS about his first vision, word for word), he also read many of the except from Benson's original talk, which is much worse than Costas.

Besides all the horrible doctrine in the Costa talk (14 fundamentals) and the Oaks reference, here are few of his own comments,

"It doesn't matter what the prophet tells you to do, even if it's wrong - you do it anyway, god will count it unto you as righteousness."

"We don't need scriptures or any other books or any other sources of wisdom. You can burn all those books and source because we have the prophet to lead us."

"A prophet council is more important than any of the standard works."

"President Monson's word is scripture."

He then went into an anti-gay tirade for 5 minutes and summed it up with this --- "the prophet has spoken, regardless of your political stance, THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS GAYS RIGHTS."

Anyway folks, I was pretty good. I took it for almost the whole meeting, and didn't speak out. Finally though, I had to leave. We meet in a small building so it was VERY obvious. I walked out. My only regret is that I waited so long and I didn't take my family with me.

I pulled my three kids out of SS and primary after SM, and had a VERY frank discussion with them. VERY honest and frank. My primary kid was in tears when we done.

I have since talked to both the BP and my HC. Neither of them think there was anything wrong with the talk or that it goes against the teachings of the church. Neither of them believes me about the history of the Benson's talk. I told the BP that I was going to write a letter to the SP, and he was okay with that. But, after talking to my HC today, he told me that the message is the assigned message from the stake and he gave a very similar talk and yes, they are suppose to go through Costa's 14 fundamentals of the prophet talk. So, he told me that SP will not have any empathy or sympathy with me, and I will pretty well just be putting the final nail in my coffin, and asked me not to do that. He has talked to some of his HC buddies, and asked me where I got my information about SWK etc, and told me to cool my jets and let him think about it before I do anything.

Which is okay, because I'm not going to be a matryer. if the church believes this crap, and the stake leadership believes it, and they want the teach it and have others believe, fine by me. It is not my place to tell them how to do their callings. They can make their own choices, and so can I. I told the BP straight up, that this is EXACTLY the kind of thing I was talking about last week where I told him I have no faith in the church, and if this is doctrine of the church, I want no part of it.
Last edited by Anonymous on 24 Jan 2011, 12:43, edited 5 times in total.
  Jesus gave us the gospel, but Satan invented church. It takes serious evil to formalize faith into something tedious and then pile guilt on anyone who doesn't participate enthusiastically. - Robert Kirby

doug
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Re: Sometimes I hate when I'm right

Post by doug » 24 Jan 2011, 10:05

See this article and references therein. I doubt you will find anything on lds.org.
The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also. -- Mark Twain

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Brian Johnston
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Re: Sometimes I hate when I'm right

Post by Brian Johnston » 24 Jan 2011, 10:14

The two vital references. There isn't anything officially published by the Church to the public. I'd be willing to bet there are meetings minutes, letters or memos in the Church archives, but that isn't available to the public.

People might possibly argue against Quinn as a reference, since he was excommunicated. People who know don't argue that much with his professional history though, even if they disagree with his views or conclusions at times. For sure, he is a respected professional historian. Someone might be tempted to dismiss Quinn's interview sources because of his status with the Church, BUT they match up to the description in the biography written by Pres. Kimball's son -- who is a straight arrow and faithful LDS member. John D. did a Mormon Stories interview with Edward Kimball about the biography.

************************************************

The account can be found in D. Michael Quinn's "Mormon Hierarchy: Extensions of Power." on page 111. The reference is found on page 469 which is:

Edward L Kimball to D Michael Quinn, 14 Aug, 20 Aug 1992. In 1980 Kimball's wife Camilla also described "his displeasure with the speech" to her brother-in-law George T Boyd (Boyd to Quinn, 24 Sept. 1992)

************************************************

“Spencer [Kimball] felt concern about the talk, wanting to protect he Church against being misunderstood as espousing ultraconservative politics or an unthinking ‘follow the leader’ mentality.” [1]

[1] For a good review of sources relating to the talk, including this quote, refer to Edward Kimball’s draft manuscript of Lengthen Your Stride on the CD which came with the biography, chapter 16, page 13.

from article found on http://bycommonconsent.com/2010/10/05/c ... ls-part-1/

************************************************

M&M: Evidence for my statement about SWK and the 14 Fundamentals talk is found in Edward L. Kimball’s biography of his father, entitled “Lengthen Your Stride.” The book comes with a CD ROM which has material that Deseret Book apparently did not want included in the printed version. On page 236 of the version entitled “Working Draft,” Kimball writes of the 14 Fundamentals talk, “Spencer felt concern about the talk, wanting to protect the church against being misunderstood as espousing ultraconservative politics or an unthinking ‘follow the leader’ mentality The First Presidency again called Elder Benson in to discuss what he had said and asked him to make an explanation to the full Quorum of the Twelve Apostles and other General Authorities.”

http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/20 ... authority/
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mercyngrace
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Re: Sometimes I hate when I'm right

Post by mercyngrace » 24 Jan 2011, 10:47

cwald wrote:I need some help quick. The HC/SP is asking me for "proof" that Benson's 14 fundamental speech was censored by President Kimball and that he was asked to apologize for giving it at the BYU devotional. They don't believe me. Does anyone have a document or know where I can get it from a "church source."

I will tell you the whole story later when I have time. Needless to say, I did not have a good Sunday, and sometimes I REALLY hate when I'm right --- Costa and Oaks talks WILL haunt many members for years to come.
I spoke up when our PH/RS revisited these talks just after conference. It didn't go over well.

The cult of personality and doctrine of near-infallibility that we've built up around our prophets is exactly what Moses spoke against. But he's a dead prophet so I guess what he said doesn't matter anymore...

Ugh.

Faithful members are those who ask questions. Questioning leads to light and knowledge.

[/rant]

Sorry - pet peeve...
Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little. ~ Luke 7:47

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cwald
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Re: Sometimes I hate when I'm right

Post by cwald » 24 Jan 2011, 12:03

Okay, I think I got what I need. I'll tell my sunday church horror story when I get more time.

Brian, I think your summary is excellent. I'm going to just print it out - I'll delete your name and the Staylds website ect.

Doug, I wasn't able to open the link because the filter at work kick it back. Is it different than the stuff Brian cited?
  Jesus gave us the gospel, but Satan invented church. It takes serious evil to formalize faith into something tedious and then pile guilt on anyone who doesn't participate enthusiastically. - Robert Kirby

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cwald
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Re: Sometimes I hate when I'm right

Post by cwald » 24 Jan 2011, 12:05

mercyngrace wrote:
I spoke up when our PH/RS revisited these talks just after conference. It didn't go over well.

The cult of personality and doctrine of near-infallibility that we've built up around our prophets is exactly what Moses spoke against. But he's a dead prophet so I guess what he said doesn't matter anymore...

Ugh.

Faithful members are those who ask questions. Questioning leads to light and knowledge.

[/rant]

Sorry - pet peeve...
You have no idea. just wait to you here my new story. I can't make this kind of stuff up.
  Jesus gave us the gospel, but Satan invented church. It takes serious evil to formalize faith into something tedious and then pile guilt on anyone who doesn't participate enthusiastically. - Robert Kirby

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SilentDawning
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Re: Sometimes I hate when I'm right

Post by SilentDawning » 24 Jan 2011, 12:18

Waiting with ears 'a-sharpened to hear what's going on Cwald.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

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cwald
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Re: Sometimes I hate when I'm right

Post by cwald » 24 Jan 2011, 12:46

I put the details in the OP under EDIT
  Jesus gave us the gospel, but Satan invented church. It takes serious evil to formalize faith into something tedious and then pile guilt on anyone who doesn't participate enthusiastically. - Robert Kirby

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jwald
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Re: Sometimes I hate when I'm right

Post by jwald » 24 Jan 2011, 13:01

I've only skimmed the 14 fundamentals talk before this and to hear this HC member go point by point and give his opinion on things made me and DD physically ill by the end of the meeting. The spirit in the room afterwards felt very oppressive. DD thought the talk made us sound like a cult and was very uncomfortable with it.

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SamBee
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Re: Sometimes I hate when I'm right

Post by SamBee » 24 Jan 2011, 13:02

He then went into an anti-gay tirade for 5 minutes and summed it up with this --- "the prophet has spoken, regardless of your political stance, THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS GAYS RIGHTS."
Actually that's stupid, gays do have rights as individuals, the question is whether or not they have rights regarding to their sexuality. These are two different questions.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
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