The Great Apostacy

Public forum to discuss questions about Mormon history and doctrine.
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Brian Johnston
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Re: The Great Apostacy

Post by Brian Johnston »

canadiangirl wrote:I wanted to see how different people saw things and so I for one am finding this very supportive. There is never an easy answer is there.
Nope. No easy answers. And none of us here have THE new correct answer to replace the old single right answer. We're not trying to convince anyone we are right, just that new views are valuable in our spiritual journey.

Like you observed so well, this is a place to bounce ideas around in a spiritually positive and supportive community, and perhaps pick up new ways to see things that work for us.
"It's strange to be here. The mystery never leaves you alone." -John O'Donohue, Anam Cara, speaking of experiencing life.
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Brian Johnston
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Re: The Great Apostacy

Post by Brian Johnston »

Just to add another perspective, I sometimes like to look at religious (LDS) ideas from a personal journey perspective.

The metaphor of the Great Apostasy and the Restoration:
Summary. Jesus Christ comes to earth and preaches the Gospel and forms the child version of his church. The adolescent church falls into "apostasy" as it struggles on its own to find its way without the "parent" holding its hand every moment and telling it what to do. Christ promised to come again when the time is right, when everything is ready to fall apart. A "restoration" happens to the adult or mid-life church in preparation for this great transformation for the world, a process of revealing new insights on the old ideas, a more mature and sophisticated view of the same "Gospel," an adult view (we experience this as the LDS Church).

Could we not see this as a metaphor for a human religious life? A personal journey?

Christ has a first appearance to us in our lives through upbringing or conversion (or more universally, some savior person-symbol). We accept what we are taught, but then over time we have to make a reconciliation of our assumptions with our messy, often brutal life (for most humans). We "fall away" and suffer temptations and doubt. At some point, after death or before, Christ comes again -- a second coming to us individually, after the dark night of the soul (apostasy). We become mature in our faith, whatever that is, and our life is a reign of peace (because we make it so, with the help of this revelation of sorts) for 1,000 years (a metaphor for a long long time).

I am not saying this is what the authors of the scriptures really meant, or that our Church teaches this view. But it is a story that resonates with deep urges in our psyche, and this is a perspective that views it as a metaphor for the personal journey we make in life.
"It's strange to be here. The mystery never leaves you alone." -John O'Donohue, Anam Cara, speaking of experiencing life.
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Heber13
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Re: The Great Apostacy

Post by Heber13 »

Brian Johnston wrote:Could we not see this as a metaphor for a human religious life? A personal journey?
Brian, I really like this metaphor and think there is a lot there to learned.

It reminds me of my journey and how when I was a young adult, going on a mission and then returning and going to college. I was taught things that in my mind were truths. In some ways, it was simple then. Black/white, right/wrong, true/false. There was book learning, for religion, for careers, for ways of life.

However, the progression then requires application of principles that were taught on my mission or taught in college, to my life and how I build a career and family and personally grow. I found that for all the theories and principles, all things require experience of adapting them to my personal situation, and by learning from experience it becomes clear and has meaning and makes sense to me. It is like there was a teaching, a falling away or apostasy by realizing things aren't so literal and universally true, and then a restoration of meaning by re-engaging myself mid-life to adapt the theories and practices to new meaning with wisdom from experience on what truly matters. I can try to explain things to my kids, but realize they also must go through such a cycle because they can't capture the meaning by being hearers of my words only.
James 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
I could see how this also applies to gospel teachings and organizations as they have to take truth as taught by prophets or by the Savior, and apply them to practice among the masses. It makes me wonder if God is less concerned if we found the right road up the mountain, and just more concerned with whether we are making it to the top of the mountain or not...regardless of the road we take.

Priesthood has its power in faith. Faith in Christ that there is power in it. That is one way to be motivated to keep moving up the mountain. I don't think there is just one road.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."
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Re: The Great Apostacy

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There is only one road for me, personally. It is different than anyone else's road, even others within my own religious community - and I don't know exactly how it will take me, but I am trying to walk it intentionally and consciously and proactively.

Fwiw, I posted the following yesterday on my personal blog:
We each need to live our lives according to our own light, try to share that light with others who really are interested in understanding it and quit trying to enforce our own light as the correct one for all. I can say that on an individual level even when I believe the overall theology of Mormonism is more complete than any other - that it is “true” in my eyes. I am involved in “sharing the Gospel” because of how it makes me feel and because I believe it can help others; however, I am not involved in belittling those who can’t see and accept what I see and accept, nor am I involved in sharing the Gospel solely (or even primarily) to "convert".

I believe the principles of the Restored Gospel will help and bless others, even those who embrace the principles without embracing the Restored Church. I hope they embrace the Church, but my sharing the Gospel with them is not dependent on it.
"It's All About Respect" (http://thingsofmysoul.blogspot.com/2010 ... spect.html)

The solution to the concept of a great apostasy, imo, is NOT converting everyone to the LDS Church. Rather, it is enlightening everyone with the principles of the Gospel of Jesus Christ - even if that means never mentioning Jesus to some but instead using their own terminology and common beliefs to accomplish the same objective.

Jesus actually didn't establish a church during his ministry. He didn't have to do so; he was his own church, in a way. Once he was gone, however, establishing a church became absolutely critical to spreading what he taught ("the Gospel") to the whole world. No religious / organizational foundation - no spreading that would last. That "humanization" of principle was the beginning of apostasy, since it introduced mortals into the transmission of immortal principles - and we still are involved in the work of getting back to the ideal and the pure, even within the LDS Church.

One of the reasons I love the Allegory of the Vineyard in Jacob 5 is that is describes, in simple, clear and unmistakable terms, the condition of apostasy as an ever-present, even pervasive condition that will not be conquered until the very end. Imo, the Great Apostasy hasn't ended; it simply has been tackled in a different and more comprehensive way.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken
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mormonheretic
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Re: The Great Apostacy

Post by mormonheretic »

I don't want to sidetrack the discussion, but I do want to point out to GBSmith that my blog also quoted St Ireneaus, born around 115 AD, which is very near the time that the Book of Revelations was written. So, it is evident to me that this idea of theosis was around very early, not just 400 years after Christ. Ireneaus said,
“the Word of God, our Lord Jesus Christ, who did, through His transcendent love, become what we are, that He might bring us to be even what He is Himself.”
Theosis and exaltation aren't exact matches--I never said they were. There are interesting similarities.

Anyway, back to the discussion of the Apostasy.....
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Tom Haws
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Re: The Great Apostacy

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canadiangirl wrote:When in history do we believe the great apostacy happened?
One approach of mine is to simply say, "It did not happen, and it is not an article of our faith, irrespective of the rhetorical use we put it to." By that approach, I can comfortably dwell as a latter day saint member without pretending to think Joseph Smith's ministry ended any great, universal apostasy.

An alternate approach of mine is much like Brian suggested as metaphor, though I might never have used the word metaphor. The fact is that I do believe the ministry of Joseph Smith did bring "ending" to "great apostasy" that "universally" reigns in the human heart. Did his ministry bring the Great End? Certainly not! Was his ministry infallible and central for humanity? Certainly not. But his ministry was nonetheless prophetic and positive. And it appears to remain meaningful for many, as it was centrally for me through much of my life.
Tom (aka Justin Martyr/Justin Morning/Jacob Marley/Kupord Maizzed)
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Sure, any religion would do. But I'm LDS.
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Re: The Great Apostacy

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Tom Haws
Did his ministry bring the Great End? Certainly not! Was his ministry infallible and central for humanity? Certainly not. But his ministry was nonetheless prophetic and positive.
I think it you asked most members to define the apostasy they'd say the loss of priesthood and loss of revelation through a designated authority/prophet. Given that the LDS Church believes the priesthood's been restored and we now have a living prophet means that the "Great Apostasy" has ended. Extending the meaning to include our own fallibilities is interesting but takes it from a general level, i.e. it was gone and now it's restored, to a personal level. That's interesting but beside the point, the point being that the priesthood was taken and the heavens closed but now it's all back to the way it was. I guess.

My personal feeling is that Christianity has just evolved naturally with the Holy Spirit trying to influence people along the way as regards belief, doctrine, organization, etc. and most have done the best they can with some notable bad exceptions. Whether or not those baptisms, confirmations, ordinations, and blessings over all those years were recognized and have to be done over again in temples I'll leave for God to sort out. All I have is today. Apostasy implies a loss and a need to get back but if you take that to a personal level you have to believe in an atonement to believe that it's possible. And that implies that if you pray someone hears you and that you'll be able to recognize an answer. Lots of ifs.
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Tom Haws
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Re: The Great Apostacy

Post by Tom Haws »

GBSmith wrote:I think it you asked most members to define the apostasy they'd say the loss of priesthood and loss of revelation through a designated authority/prophet. Given that the LDS Church believes the priesthood's been restored and we now have a living prophet means that the "Great Apostasy" has ended.
Right. I think you just defined "traditional believer" (AKA TBM) better than I have been able to. I am going to quote you at the TBM thread.
Tom (aka Justin Martyr/Justin Morning/Jacob Marley/Kupord Maizzed)
Higley and Guadalupe
Gilbert, Arizona
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Sure, any religion would do. But I'm LDS.
"There are no academic issues. Everything is emotional to somebody." Ray Degraw at www.StayLDS.com
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cwald
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Re: The Great Apostacy

Post by cwald »

Tom Haws wrote:
GBSmith wrote:I think it you asked most members to define the apostasy they'd say the loss of priesthood and loss of revelation through a designated authority/prophet. Given that the LDS Church believes the priesthood's been restored and we now have a living prophet means that the "Great Apostasy" has ended.
Right. I think you just defined "traditional believer" (AKA TBM) better than I have been able to. I am going to quote you at the TBM thread.
Yeah, most members do believe this - but does that make it "true?"
  Jesus gave us the gospel, but Satan invented church. It takes serious evil to formalize faith into something tedious and then pile guilt on anyone who doesn't participate enthusiastically. - Robert Kirby
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Brian Johnston
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Re: The Great Apostacy

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GBSmith wrote:Yeah, most members do believe this - but does that make it "true?"
Yes. If they believe that, it is true and real. All kinds of real evidence will appear in their vision to confirm it to them also.
"It's strange to be here. The mystery never leaves you alone." -John O'Donohue, Anam Cara, speaking of experiencing life.
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