I toured the Kirtland temple yesterday

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Kracken

I toured the Kirtland temple yesterday

Post by Kracken » 25 Jun 2010, 03:14

I've been in the Cleveland area this week on business, and I managed to leave an hour early yesterday and drive to Kirtland to check out the temple. The COC have done a great job of renovating it and some of the other historical buildings in the area. They have a 20 minute video presentation before the tour in the visitors center where they explain the origins and construction of the temple, some of the other events going on in Kirtland at the time, and renovation efforts since the main body of saints left. The building itself is amazing. I was impressed with all of the technological innovations the saints employed, as well as how well the building has been restored.

One thing that struck me is how honest the COC is with the history. They had no problems admitting to some of the things that have caused cog-dis for me in the past. They were selling copies of Kirtland Safety Society anti-banking company notes in the visitors center. They also discussed the leadership crisis that occurred after the deaths of Joseph and Hyrum, even showing a map where all the leaders went. They even discussed the apostacy of some of the key leaders and others. They did ignore polygamy for the most part, but otherwise I was struck at how honest they are regarding a lot of the things that we don't usually discover in church.

It made me wonder how much easier things would be if we were more honest in a similar fashion. Sure, we might lose some converts, but perhaps we'd keep more of our own people and not cause so much anguish and cog-dis later on. The history is out there for all to see on the Internet. It'd be nice if our leaders could stop trying to ignore this and follow the COC model.

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SamBee
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Re: I toured the Kirtland temple yesterday

Post by SamBee » 25 Jun 2010, 04:59

It made me wonder how much easier things would be if we were more honest in a similar fashion. Sure, we might lose some converts, but perhaps we'd keep more of our own people and not cause so much anguish and cog-dis later on. The history is out there for all to see on the Internet. It'd be nice if our leaders could stop trying to ignore this and follow the COC model.
There are ways of disclosing the information... I agree that I would like to see something like this, but I think in other ways parts of the CoC have had a tendency to go in for the woollier thinking of Anglicanism... i.e. the so called broad church. On some issues, "erm" and "maybe" aren't any good.

By the way, I've noticed that "cog dis" is something of a buzz phrase just now (I prefer the Orwellian term "doublethink", myself, much better). Like many concepts thrown around by atheists and skeptics (not saying you're one BTW) at the moment, I think if it was properly applied it would cause some upsets. They would realize that they themselves carried a good many contradictions within them, and that a lot of their philosophy is riddled with apparent hypocrisies too.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

GBSmith
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Re: I toured the Kirtland temple yesterday

Post by GBSmith » 25 Jun 2010, 08:30

I visited the Kirtland Temple about 16-17 years ago and remember that in the visitors center they had a first edition BoM open to the section condemning polygamy. Subtle but it made the point.

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Heber13
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Re: I toured the Kirtland temple yesterday

Post by Heber13 » 25 Jun 2010, 15:24

I love the Kirtland sites. I love the way the LDS church has put so much into building up all the sites around the temple, including Johnson's Farm and the stores.

I also like the COC honesty, and I like the LDS church inspirational tours.

Kirtland is one of my favorite church historical sites...very moving.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

Kracken

Re: I toured the Kirtland temple yesterday

Post by Kracken » 25 Jun 2010, 16:08

Interesting, I didn't think we did much in Kirtland. I know we have a fairly large chapel down the road from the temple, but it looks like the COC has taken the lead on a lot of things. Of course, I didn't see historic Kirtland in the area of the Johnson farm. Do we do tours there? If so, I'm sorry I missed it.

nightwalden
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Re: I toured the Kirtland temple yesterday

Post by nightwalden » 25 Jun 2010, 23:14

Yeah, they do tours at the Johnson farm. They tell about when the Smith's lived there. The one that sticks out most is the story of Joseph being carried out and tarred and feathered. But the men who took him left the door open and it was cold and a child died.
Last edited by nightwalden on 28 Jun 2010, 13:11, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: I toured the Kirtland temple yesterday

Post by mormonheretic » 26 Jun 2010, 15:26

I toured the Independence Temple a few weeks ago in Missouri at the MHA. Like you, I really like the CoC's honest approach of church history. The LDS church has a different view of church history that isn't better or worse, but it is different.

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Heber13
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Re: I toured the Kirtland temple yesterday

Post by Heber13 » 28 Jun 2010, 11:41

Steve-hpias wrote:Interesting, I didn't think we did much in Kirtland. I know we have a fairly large chapel down the road from the temple, but it looks like the COC has taken the lead on a lot of things. Of course, I didn't see historic Kirtland in the area of the Johnson farm. Do we do tours there? If so, I'm sorry I missed it.
I wouldn't say the COC has taken the lead, I think they have the rights to the Kirtland temple itself, but that is all. You can tell the LDS tour sites are put together with more resources available...I think Pres Hinckley worked to build up a lot of historic sites in Kirtland, Nauvoo, and Missouri. That has been my experience.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

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Tom Haws
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Re: I toured the Kirtland temple yesterday

Post by Tom Haws » 30 Jun 2010, 06:59

SamBee wrote:By the way, I've noticed that "cog dis" is something of a buzz phrase just now (I prefer the Orwellian term "doublethink", myself, much better).
Threadjack alert.

I don't understand how cognitive dissonance and doublethink are synonyms. What cognitive dissonance refers to is the tormented mind state that exists when we are trying to make sense out of things that just aren't working for us. Often what characterizes the movement of a person from the traditional/conventional reliance of Fowler Stage 3 to the individuated reliance of Fowler Stage 4 is an epiphany that resolves some troublesome cognitive dissonance in their mind. So when people throw around the abbreviation "cog dis", I think they are 1) remembering a lot of pre-epiphany pain they suffered or 2) conjecturing similar underlying pain--perhaps suppressed--in others who are enjoying or not enjoying Stage 3 of faith.

Since the phrase "cog dis" may be an expression of deep-seated emotion, I wouldn't deny people their use of it. But I agree that if it has become tired, misunderstood, and misused, it might be better to use other terms like "my intellectual 'shelf' was so overloaded with issues it broke", "internal conflict", "conflicting ideas", "contrast of what I believed with what I saw", etc.

I would be interested to understand what is the meaning of "doublethink".

Tom
Tom (aka Justin Martyr/Justin Morning/Jacob Marley/Kupord Maizzed)
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Sure, any religion would do. But I'm LDS.
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SamBee
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Re: I toured the Kirtland temple yesterday

Post by SamBee » 30 Jun 2010, 07:50

Okay Tom, thread fork - I put an answer here -
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1638
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

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