Elder Uchtdorf as Medicine for Elder Oaks

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Curt Sunshine
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Elder Uchtdorf as Medicine for Elder Oaks

Post by Curt Sunshine » 06 Oct 2018, 21:16

I missed General Conference because I was attending the North Dakota Human Rights LGBTQ2 Conference. (The 2 is for the Native American concept of the 2-spirit.) It was a wonderful experience.

When I got home, my deeply faithful wife told me about the talks. She thought of everyone here while listening to Elder Oaks, and I got a text message this evening from a transgender friend who was having a hard time as a result of that talk. She then told me about Elder Uchtdorf's talk, from the extensive notes she takes.

Something hit me hard as she was talking about Elder Uchtdorf's talk.

For some people, Elder Oaks' talk was a bit poisonous. Elder Uchtdorf's talk is the medicine for it. The answer for many members is to live what Elder Uchtdorf taught and ignore some of what Elder Oaks preached. Some people need Elder Oaks' certainty and steadfast exactness, but those who don't need that can find healing from Elder Uchtdorf's grace and inclusion.

I am happy Elder Uchtdorf spoke after Elder Oaks.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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DarkJedi
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Re: Elder Uchtdorf as Medicine for Elder Oaks

Post by DarkJedi » 07 Oct 2018, 05:59

Curt Sunshine wrote:
06 Oct 2018, 21:16
For some people, Elder Oaks' talk was a bit poisonous. Elder Uchtdorf's talk is the medicine for it. The answer for many members is to live what Elder Uchtdorf taught and ignore some of what Elder Oaks preached. Some people need Elder Oaks' certainty and steadfast exactness, but those who don't need that can find healing from Elder Uchtdorf's grace and inclusion.

I am happy Elder Uchtdorf spoke after Elder Oaks.
This is pretty much where I am at. My BYU sons both told me people there loved the Oaks talk. I'm sure there are people who do rally behind that kind of "standard bearing." I'm not making a direct comparison here, but in some ways that's very much like the ardent Trump followers - he gives the message they want to hear and it doesn't matter how much some others might be offended by that message.

Uchtdorf's talk was very reminiscent of "Come, Join With Us" which as some of you know made a difference in my life. Some of it was almost directly quoted from the earlier talk. I agree, Uchtdorf gives us a bit of the balm of Gilead. I was honestly not only disappointed in the talk by Oaks (because I don't why he beats the same drum so often) but a few others as well, including Christofferson and to some extent Gong. While Uchtdorf couldn't kiss it and make it all better, he didn't hurt more either.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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Re: Elder Uchtdorf as Medicine for Elder Oaks

Post by AmyJ » 07 Oct 2018, 06:14

I got 2 doses of Oaks because he spoke at the women's meeting.

Since he basically handed over the teaching at home to the sisters under the "nurturing" umbrella as listed in the "Family: A Proclamation", I was livid and thinking of stopping participation in the church. I felt the expectation that I be the nurturing one was enhanced without the "the partnership adapts to circumstances" from the same document being alloweed. I am in the position to teach good morals and love, but that would not be enough for Oaks' standard and for the wrong reasons (according to his paradigm). My sweet husband mourned with me and reminded me that we are outliers to the system, so Elder Oaks' talks might not work for us based on our circumstances.

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Re: Elder Uchtdorf as Medicine for Elder Oaks

Post by nibbler » 07 Oct 2018, 06:40

I didn't watch conference, I purposely avoided it this year, I don't know what exactly was said but it's not hard to guess what Oaks likes to talk about.

One talk I can ignore or grit my teeth and muscle through, but I'll tell you what's hard.

The only, and I mean the only talk that I've seen people in my area mention on social media was Elder Oaks' talk. They absolutely loved it. Now... far, far more people in my area haven't made any comment at all about any talks. For all I know an overwhelming majority could be dead-set against the teachings brought up in the talk.

Good luck bringing that up at church though, where I feel the most orthodox that loved the talk will hold the culture hostage. Being against any idea brought up in the talk is not a tenable position, there's a strong voice of authority that is against you and the orthodox absolutely love the talk.

It's easy to reach the conclusion, "It's just a person I disagree with. I'll ignore them." It's harder when your tribe wants to hold your feet to the fire. It really makes one wonder whether they can continue to hang with their tribe. I don't want to attend church where our local leaders loved the talk so much that we read it four times between now and April.
You can't break what's broken already.
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SamBee
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Re: Elder Uchtdorf as Medicine for Elder Oaks

Post by SamBee » 07 Oct 2018, 08:29

The gay rights lobby is becoming as bad as the LDS for their alphabet soup...
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

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Re: Elder Uchtdorf as Medicine for Elder Oaks

Post by Curt Sunshine » 07 Oct 2018, 12:21

[Personal note, not an Admin Note]: I will NOT accept insulting the LGBTQ+ community, even just by implication, in threads about posts I write. The lettering has nothing to do with "the gay rights lobby". They literally are very different things. The extra letters are to represent people who have been erased from our written records because there have not been ways to name them for who they are. We would never suggest eliminating references to race or ethnicity from a list of people's heritages; I will not accept suggestions to eliminate references to the actual sexual identities of real people. They have been eliminated from our dialogue for too long. I will not let it happen or even be suggested in threads about posts I write.

It won't be addressed again in this thread. It isn't the focus of the post, and comments about it will divert attention from that focus.

I am sorry if that sounds harsh or dismissive, but this is an issue on which I will not bend - as a participant, not as an admin.

/back to the purpose and focus of the post
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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SamBee
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Re: Elder Uchtdorf as Medicine for Elder Oaks

Post by SamBee » 07 Oct 2018, 13:16

It's not insulting them. I've seen a number of variations of that abbreviation, and if one uses the wrong one you end up offending someone. Even LGBT+ isn't acceptable to some folk. Some folk include an A (Asexual), or a V (Vague) or an I (Intersex) or two Ts (to distinguish varieties of trans-people) and so on.

FYI I'm visiting a gay person just now who is sitting right next to me on the same couch, who also finds this alphabet soup ridiculous, so please don't try and play the homophobe card against me on this.

Alphabet soup is also a problem in the church too, as you well know, and no one's accused anyone of being anti-Mormon, or anti-LDS/COJCOLDS/COJC or whatever we're called this week.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

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Re: Elder Uchtdorf as Medicine for Elder Oaks

Post by Curt Sunshine » 07 Oct 2018, 19:29

I apologize, Sam, if my comment seemed to say you are homophobic. That was not my intent. Seriously, that was not my intent.

My point simply was that the lettering and the gay rights lobby are very different things - and there is a concerted effort even within the gay community to be more accepting of the other letter individuals. Being gay (G) is very different than being someone who is represented by the other letters, and a lot of gay people (especially older gay people) have struggled to accept being grouped with them - for a lot of reasons. Saying or even implying that the other letters should be eliminated is insulting to people who are represented by those letters, intentionally or unintentionally, and saying that they are the result of the gay rights lobby simply is incorrect.

This is an incredibly complicated issue, and this thread is not the thread to disucuss it. It needs to drop now, so the conversation can return to the focus of the post: Elder Oaks' and Elder Uchtdorf's talks as they relate to ALL of us. If you want to continue the discussion, please send me a PM so we can do so privately.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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SamBee
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Re: Elder Uchtdorf as Medicine for Elder Oaks

Post by SamBee » 08 Oct 2018, 01:56

FWIW, I disagree with DFU on Ecclesiastes. It's probably my favorite book in the OT, and I don't see it as something entirely negative. However, he is still perhaps the best public speaker among the GAs and I always look forward to his talks.

Also this was an Uchtdorf talk which *almost* proceeded without any aviation references.

It is interesting to hear "Weltschmerz" used from the podium. I've always found German an amazing language in that sense, it has all kinds of words English atruggles to produce. I think many of us suffer from Weltschmerz without even being aware of the term.

I didn't hear Pres. Oaks, because I had to leave our chapel and get some fresh air when it was on (I was unable to stay awake for some reason - nothing to do with the speakers BTW).
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

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Ilovechrist77
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Re: Elder Uchtdorf as Medicine for Elder Oaks

Post by Ilovechrist77 » 08 Oct 2018, 14:29

Honestly, I used to like Oaks when I was younger. However, he's become too conservative over the years, in my opinion, and behind the scenes he's said some comments that really rubbed me the wrong way. Uchtdorf I still like a lot, even if all his talks aren't all equal in greatness.

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