YSA Fireside

Public forum for those seeking support for their experience in the LDS Church.
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nibbler
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Re: YSA Fireside

Post by nibbler » 12 Sep 2018, 05:50

I want to revisit a lasting concern I've had.

Good for the church for taking steps to get better. Good for the youth that will be inoculated.

What of the people caught in the middle? What are we going to do for them? The people that we routinely label as having been led by Satan but their only shortcoming was being ahead of the curve.

Kids 10 to 20 years from now will only have the corrected narratives but I think as a culture we'll continue to look down on the people that arrive at non-correlated conclusions. I worry about the people in the middle, we're too adept at pushing them further away.

Maybe that's just the price of admission with high demand, highly authoritative, highly certain organizations. Some subgroup has to end up on the chopping blocks during periods of change.
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold
-Jesus

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mom3
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Re: YSA Fireside

Post by mom3 » 12 Sep 2018, 11:33

What of the people caught in the middle? What are we going to do for them?
I think this is why I keep attending. It's a stupid reason, but I will be damned if you get to exile me. I try to speak up gently. But I can't yet drop the rope and be okay.
Good for the youth that will be inoculated.
As for inoculated youth and people, I am not sure it's a guarantee. For those of us -middle wayers- who have kids that know more, they aren't going to buy in as easily. Sunday morning, before the Face to Face Fireside even happened, my MBM millenial daughter texted about "Saints" I told her I knew little about it, but that it appeared to have an apologist slant on it. She said she wouldn't be reading it because she knew she would spend hours hunting the source material and eventually unable to be a "More Believer".
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

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dande48
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Re: YSA Fireside

Post by dande48 » 12 Sep 2018, 12:32

mom3 wrote:
12 Sep 2018, 11:33
Sunday morning, before the Face to Face Fireside even happened, my MBM millenial daughter texted about "Saints" I told her I knew little about it, but that it appeared to have an apologist slant on it. She said she wouldn't be reading it because she knew she would spend hours hunting the source material and eventually unable to be a "More Believer".
Smart kid! I'm glad the youth have become the "Need Citation Generation". :thumbup: I have hope everything will be ok.
"The whole world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel." - Horace Walpole

"Even though there are no ways of knowing for sure, there are ways of knowing for pretty sure."
-Lemony Snicket

Curt Sunshine
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Re: YSA Fireside

Post by Curt Sunshine » 12 Sep 2018, 14:03

I have six kids, 16-30. Three of them are classic, heterodox believers on their own terms; one is completely inactive but totally chill and not opposed in any way; one is traditionally believing with elements of personal disagreement; one has unique beliefs and a schedule that creates a Sunday attender only. I wouldn't be surprised by any path the last one takes, except traditionally orthodox.

This isn't my father's world, so this can't be my father's church. As a social scientist by nature, it is fascinating to watch it all unfold.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

AmyJ
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Re: YSA Fireside

Post by AmyJ » 13 Sep 2018, 05:59

Curt Sunshine wrote:
12 Sep 2018, 14:03
I have six kids, 16-30. Three of them are classic, heterodox believers on their own terms; one is completely inactive but totally chill and not opposed in any way; one is traditionally believing with elements of personal disagreement; one has unique beliefs and a schedule that creates a Sunday attender only. I wouldn't be surprised by any path the last one takes, except traditionally orthodox.
I am the oldest of 9. 8 out of the 9 of us buck automatically believing what others tell us/expect us to believe pretty regularly (1 sister is mentally handicapped and functions developmentally approx. 10 years old). Four out of the 8 siblings (taking that sister out of the equation) I believe attend a church regularly (including myself). I think that 7 out of the 9 kids believe in God (omitting myself and 1 brother), but there are 2 more siblings that I don't think God plays a role in their lives. NOTE: While we question authority, we are mostly a bunch of law-abiding citizens (except for speed limits and parking the car in the wrong place sometimes).
Curt Sunshine wrote:
12 Sep 2018, 14:03
This isn't my father's world, so this can't be my father's church. As a social scientist by nature, it is fascinating to watch it all unfold.
It is interesting when I listen to older sisters in R.S. at church, or when I talk to my mom. The church teachings and church culture are changing as we all learn what the best practices are in our time.

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nibbler
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Re: YSA Fireside

Post by nibbler » 13 Sep 2018, 07:07

Curt Sunshine wrote:
12 Sep 2018, 14:03
This isn't my father's world, so this can't be my father's church. As a social scientist by nature, it is fascinating to watch it all unfold.
Unfold.

Kinda reminds me of:
The Spirit of Revelation, David A. Bednar wrote:The first experience occurred as we entered a dark room and turned on a light switch. Remember how in an instant a bright flood of illumination filled the room and caused the darkness to disappear. What previously had been unseen and uncertain became clear and recognizable. This experience was characterized by immediate and intense recognition of light.

The second experience took place as we watched night turn into morning. Do you recall the slow and almost imperceptible increase in light on the horizon? In contrast to turning on a light in a dark room, the light from the rising sun did not immediately burst forth. Rather, gradually and steadily the intensity of the light increased, and the darkness of night was replaced by the radiance of morning. Eventually, the sun did dawn over the skyline. But the visual evidence of the sun’s impending arrival was apparent hours before the sun actually appeared over the horizon. This experience was characterized by subtle and gradual discernment of light.
For some the transition away from Curt Sunshine's father's church ( ;) ) has been like flicking a light switch. For others it will be like a sunrise.

Not to put one group ahead of or better than another, but there's bound to be an interesting dynamic between the people that have had sudden illumination and the people that have a more gradual illumination, so gradual it could span generations. The sudden illumination people probably feel the gradual illumination people are moving much too slow while the gradual illumination people probably feel the sudden illumination people are moving much too fast or are misguided.
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold
-Jesus

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mom3
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Re: YSA Fireside

Post by mom3 » 13 Sep 2018, 09:14

the sudden illumination people are moving much too fast or are misguided.
The painful part, as you point out earlier, the sudden illumination people are of little concern to anyone. Sure they may be blind right now, but it was their fault. At least as the over arching narrative stands.

Sadly the small invitations to be kind to the suddenly illuminated have been hijacked. Thus adding to the pain of the suddenly illuminated. And it hurts really bad.
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

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On Own Now
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Re: YSA Fireside

Post by On Own Now » 13 Sep 2018, 15:25

nibbler wrote:
11 Sep 2018, 09:21
I've noticed that sometimes when people openly express their aversions to polygamy it puts descendants of polygamous relationships on the defensive, as if people are expressing aversion towards their family and heritage and not the practice itself. Is it possible to untangle the practice from the people?
IMO, yes it is possible. FWIW, my grandfather (not great or great-great... my two generations back grandfather) was a child from a polygamous marriage (second wife).

From our standpoint, the way to promote untangling is to see polygamy as not the fault of those who practiced it. It was invented by JS. Everyone else was just doing what they thought was expected of them by God. So, if we acknowledge that THEY were following the teaching of the Church, usually at great personal sacrifice, then we can separate out their devotion from the nature of the commandment itself.

I do understand why people would have a tendency to become defensive. They've heard all their lives about their progenitors who passed this test of faith, so it might seem like an attack on their family's identity if that sensitivity is not understood and acknowledged. I find myself being defensive when I hear people who suffer a FC referred to as 'apostate' or described as having fallen into sin or having been deceived by the devil. Defensiveness for one's own kind is natural and reasonable.
"Let us therefore no longer pass judgment on one another, but resolve instead never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of another." --Romans 14:13

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On Own Now
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Re: YSA Fireside

Post by On Own Now » 14 Sep 2018, 10:01

nibbler wrote:
11 Sep 2018, 09:21
  • Acknowledged four accounts.

    Weren't there a lot more, I don't know.
Yes, but there are only four first-hand accounts, where JS either wrote it out himself or had scribes write it at his direction. There are second-hand accounts where people recorded what they remembered JS telling them. Any historian would give less weight to a second-hand account, compared to a first-hand account. It doesn't mean that it's not accurate, only that it can't be viewed as definitive.

An example of a second-hand account was written by Orson Pratt in which OP says that the light was so intense that JS expected the trees to have caught fire. I noticed that this tidbit made its way into Saints. Another example was the journal of a man named Neibaur. In his entry, just a month before JS was killed, Neibaur refers to 'fire' rather than light, which works well in view of the OP account.

As an aside, OP also described it in a spiritual, visionary way:
When [the light] first came upon him, it produced a peculiar sensation throughout his whole system; and, immediately, his mind was caught away, from the natural objects with which he was surrounded; and he was enwrapped in a heavenly vision...
"Let us therefore no longer pass judgment on one another, but resolve instead never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of another." --Romans 14:13

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Reuben
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Re: YSA Fireside

Post by Reuben » 15 Sep 2018, 18:25

I applaud the increased transparency and honesty.

I had three predictions for the event, all of which came true.

1. The church is pushing "Saints."

2. There still isn't the barest hint of reconciling with anyone who discovered what's now in "Saints" and lost belief, trust, friends and family over it.

You can't repent of dishonesty - by omission, whitewashing, paltering, lying, what have you - just by telling the truth more. But maybe it feels close enough to tell the truth more and wait until the people you've hurt are safely dead. And maybe there's less shame in doing that.

3. It's always, always, always your fault if you doubt. Even with the so-called "new history" and all its glorious human messiness, there's still no room for doubt.

#2 will continue to ensure that people who have lost trust in the church never recover it.

#3 will come off as fanatical and strange to a lot of youth. If they leave, because of #2, most will be gone for good.

I predict a lot of pain. I don't know if there will be less pain than if the church had stuck with the old dominant narrative.
My intro

Love before dogma. Truth before loyalty. Knowledge before certainty.

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