Why do you stay?

Public forum for those seeking support for their experience in the LDS Church.
VioletFire
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Why do you stay?

Post by VioletFire » 18 Jul 2018, 15:45

I've read through some posts on here about the topic of staying. There was a really interesting one from 2013, but I thought an update would be nice. So why do you stay? Have your reasons for staying changed over the years? What is your definition of "staying"?

This is something I've been thinking over a lot lately. Maybe I consider myself an agnostic mormon or NOM? I'm doubtful it's "the one true church", but I think it's still useful for having a relationship with God. For now we stay because change is scary and I think we are still processing everything. Church has been part of our identities for so long. We are taking everything very slowly. We still go to church a couple times a month. I gave a talk recently but declined to teach Relief Society. We also declined callings as Librarians.

In general my reasons for staying are probably because I felt like it was a good foundation for me growing up (and hope it will be good for my kids), it helps give me a sense of community (very large reason), and it gives me a place to serve and think about my relationship with God/others. The thing is I wonder if it will be more detrimental to my kids in the long run. They are small and aren't really indoctrinated yet. I like the principles of clean living and the idea of my kids having a relationship with God; however, I wonder if it will be strange for them to learn about principles at church and then see mom and dad not living them correctly? I recently stopped wearing my garments at night (it's so hot and I'm so much more comfortable) and occasionally when I'm at home I'll wear some mid-thigh shorts. Also we stopped paying most of our tithing and want to give more liberally to charities instead.

Anyway I suppose those are my ramblings about my thoughts and concerns about staying. I would love to hear your answers though. Do you feel you have a healthy relationship with "The Church?" Would you stay if your spouse wasn't TBM?

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Heber13
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Re: Why do you stay?

Post by Heber13 » 18 Jul 2018, 16:25

VioletFire wrote:
18 Jul 2018, 15:45
So why do you stay?
Mostly because it is something our family does, and so i look for meaning to keep trying and make it worth it.
Have your reasons for staying changed over the years?
Yes, very much. I expect they will keep changing.
What is your definition of "staying"?
Still attending church is staying to me. Even if not every week, but often.
VioletFire wrote:
18 Jul 2018, 15:45
Do you feel you have a healthy relationship with "The Church?"
I think so. I think I can see it for what it is, so it is more healthy than in the past when it caused so much fear in me. I think I accept where I'm at with it, and also see the good it has to offer. Truly cafeteria style.
Would you stay if your spouse wasn't TBM?
My wife is not TBM, and we both stay. We are both remarried after failed temple sealings, and learned a lot through those experiences. Our kids get benefits from church as we keep them involved...having good mormon friends and activities is a good thing, good standards while dating and going through high school is of benefit. We get good things from it as a family. It is good to be reminded of good lessons and find opportunities to connect with others and serve others and think about God in our lives.

The church doesn't have to be more than what it is for me to stay connected to it. Attending church is a way for me to practice my religion, and if I can stay charitable in thought and deed even if I'm unique. It helps me learn to not seek approval of others for what I believe, or to succumb to the temptation to conform to what everyone else is. I practice managing my emotions while I sit in church, and remind myself I'm not so different from everyone else. We're all on this planet to learn things, and we learn it differently.

Church is good for me to do that.

And of course, I skip when I want to, and don't often feel guilty about it. To me, that is what a healthy relationship is. I get to do things for me as well as sacrifice for the church at times too...but it isn't all one-sided. It is balanced and healthy.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

AmyJ
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Re: Why do you stay?

Post by AmyJ » 19 Jul 2018, 06:05

VioletFire wrote:
18 Jul 2018, 15:45
So why do you stay? Have your reasons for staying changed over the years? What is your definition of "staying"?
I stay because of family and community (it's complicated). I stay because I haven't found anything else to "trade up" for. I stay because leadership roulette has played out in my favor and the upper leadership hasn't tried to shove me out the door, but rather has cultivated an environment where we work together to communicate and find balance.
VioletFire wrote:
18 Jul 2018, 15:45
This is something I've been thinking over a lot lately. Maybe I consider myself an agnostic mormon or NOM? I'm doubtful it's "the one true church", but I think it's still useful for having a relationship with God. For now we stay because change is scary and I think we are still processing everything.
I am not qualified to figure out if the church is "the one true church" for anyone else but myself (and to a certain extent, my family). For now, the LDS church is the church for me because it is where I have a community. Since I am in the process of figuring out whether a relationship with God is salvageable at this point in my life, and what it would look like - we haven't gotten to claims of authority yet.
VioletFire wrote:
18 Jul 2018, 15:45
Church has been part of our identities for so long. We are taking everything very slowly. We still go to church a couple times a month. I gave a talk recently but declined to teach Relief Society. We also declined callings as Librarians.
Slow is good. My husband and I are still processing what my faith transition means to us. My husband is the branch executive secretary, so I support him in that by getting the girls ready for church on my own. I sub in Primary a lot - mostly nursery coverage because I have a clingy toddler. I help with Achievement Days because I have an 8.5 year old in the program.

My family is an extra needs family with some quasi-visible challenges that limit our collective resource pool. We don't fit (or desire to give up ourselves to fit) into neat pigeon holes. However, my faith transition has taught me that no one really fits the pigeon holes well, so I can still belong to the community if I want to and if it is not harmful to my family or myself.
VioletFire wrote:
18 Jul 2018, 15:45
In general my reasons for staying are probably because I felt like it was a good foundation for me growing up (and hope it will be good for my kids), it helps give me a sense of community (very large reason), and it gives me a place to serve and think about my relationship with God/others. The thing is I wonder if it will be more detrimental to my kids in the long run. They are small and aren't really indoctrinated yet. I like the principles of clean living and the idea of my kids having a relationship with God; however, I wonder if it will be strange for them to learn about principles at church and then see mom and dad not living them correctly? I recently stopped wearing my garments at night (it's so hot and I'm so much more comfortable) and occasionally when I'm at home I'll wear some mid-thigh shorts. Also we stopped paying most of our tithing and want to give more liberally to charities instead.

Anyway I suppose those are my ramblings about my thoughts and concerns about staying. I would love to hear your answers though. Do you feel you have a healthy relationship with "The Church?" Would you stay if your spouse wasn't TBM?
My perception of the the relationship I have with "The Church" varies daily. I think I am at a place where I am learning to perceive what that looks like to me, and what the vision of what I want it to be (and what it wants to appear like in my life) meet. The church is more human and less divine then I always assumed it was. This is good because I can revise my expectations for it, and more meaningfully join in if I desire to do so. This is bad, because I now assume that if I don't set boundaries - the church as an institution can and will make judgement calls in its interests over my own interests.

EXAMPLE/SOAP BOX: In October 2017, Elder Nelson came to our stake for a visit and set up meetings and his wife held a R.S. meeting. Saturday afternoon a Priesthood Leadership Meeting was held that my husband needed to attend, while at the same time in a different building, a R.S. meeting was held. The majority of the leadership in our branch is held by couples - so a good 2/3 of active families with children were impacted.
Here are the options that could have happened:
1) Stake R.S. coordinate with Stake Y.W. and Stake Primary to set up child care at either building - or a separate building.
2) Branch Council set up child arrangements.
3) Crickets - Everyone "assumes" that the families impacted will handle their child care arrangements. A lot of non-member "play dates" were set up.
4) Other Option Available*
5) Not Attend

We originally were going to have me take our baby and go to the meeting, while my husband took our 8.5 year old with a kindle to his meeting. However, the 8.5 year old turns out to be sick with a stomach bug, so I held down the fort at home.

I understand that this is my perception - that a church that cared about families with kids would make arrangements at an above Stake level for leadership meetings for those kids is an assumption I made on my part. I understand the principles of agency and sacrifice here that more traditional members use in their narrative. For me, the more pragmatic no-one-seemed-to-care-to-assist-with-the-arrangements (I even offered to watch the kids for our branch with local Y.W. support and got crickets) tells me that the leadership above the stake level does not care enough to talk to the leadership families with kids about potential logistical options to the stake or branch levels - and if they don't care enough to take care of the parents attending these meetings, then they don't care about me as a parent (other then advising me on how to raise my kids). That's fine, the organization has that right - and it could be any message given above stake level never made it to the stake level, or to the branch level.

But if I was running a church organization and had the resources to take care of the needs of my attendees (aside from the snack situation), then I would bring it up as something to look at and I would reach out to the other groups to provide coverage. And if I was constrained from doing anything, I would probably be honest about it to those I served.

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dande48
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Re: Why do you stay?

Post by dande48 » 19 Jul 2018, 06:34

VioletFire wrote:
18 Jul 2018, 15:45
So why do you stay?
For all its problems, I still love the Church. I love the people. Also, it's important to my wife. She doesn't make me go, and hasn't made any ultimatums. But I love her and want to support her.
VioletFire wrote:
18 Jul 2018, 15:45
Have your reasons for staying changed over the years?
Yes. When I was young, I went because I was a kid, and that's what families do. Later, I went because it's true. Now, I don't believe it's true and I'm a real grown-up, so the only reason that's left is my love for the Church, and my love for family. I guess you could say, I have lost many reasons for staying, but the reasons I have left are good enough for me.
VioletFire wrote:
18 Jul 2018, 15:45
What is your definition of "staying"?
I attend Church and all the ward activities. I contribute in class where I can, and am careful not to toss around any heresy. I chose not to hold a TR or calling, and I don't clean the Church. My wife pays tithing on 5% of our income, and I give my 5% to God in my own way (Feeding America and DWOB). When my daughter is old enough, I would willingly accept a calling in the nursery. My daughter has severe separation anxiety, and it would be nice to give my wife a break. As it stands, I usually play with her in the hall when I can't relate to or don't like the lesson.
VioletFire wrote:
18 Jul 2018, 15:45
This is something I've been thinking over a lot lately. Maybe I consider myself an agnostic mormon or NOM?
Not really a question, but I'd recommend against labeling yourself. Labels are for other people. Who you are and what you believe is unique to you.
VioletFire wrote:
18 Jul 2018, 15:45
Do you feel you have a healthy relationship with "The Church?"
Once I decided I couldn't be "married" to the Church, but wanted to remain "just friends", our relationship improved. For all its benefits, "marriage" means investing most of your time and emotional effort. It's a contract, to stick with one another, no matter what happens. Pre-marriage they talk a big game, and at the wedding they make the highest promises. The expectations we set are often crushed. Spouses tend to take one another for granted. They first hand experience the other's greatest flaws, and often find it hard to be forgiving.

On the other hand, "just friends" expect a whole lot less, and forgive a whole lot more. We don't expect them to meet all our needs, or to fully understand us. We don't feel that our friends will stand by us or admire us no matter what we do, so we tend to be on our best behavior. Friendship itself is full of kindness and tolerance, in a way that often not seen in marriage. In many ways, friendship brings out our best selves. Since I gave "the Church" the "let's be just friends" talk, I am much more happy and comfortable in our relationship.
VioletFire wrote:
18 Jul 2018, 15:45
In general my reasons for staying are probably because I felt like it was a good foundation for me growing up (and hope it will be good for my kids), it helps give me a sense of community (very large reason), and it gives me a place to serve and think about my relationship with God/others. The thing is I wonder if it will be more detrimental to my kids in the long run. They are small and aren't really indoctrinated yet. I like the principles of clean living and the idea of my kids having a relationship with God; however, I wonder if it will be strange for them to learn about principles at church and then see mom and dad not living them correctly?
There's this episode of Rick and Morty (S02 E05, around the 12:20 mark), which really stuck out to me. To summarize the plot: A giant alien "head" visits earth. As part of their reality TV series, they subjugate the "lesser races" to participate in an "American Idol"-like competition. The main protagonist, Rick, knows what's going on, but the rest of the populace does not. Because the head is so giant, its enormous gravity causes all sorts of natural disasters. Combined with a number of misinterpretations with what the giant head says (it speaks to and judges Rick's "Get Schwifty" performance, but the whole world, oblivious, can hear it), a cult forms around worshiping the giant head. The Smith family joins this cult, especially when they see the positive influence it has on their daughter, Summer Smith. She gets good grades, as much improved morals, isn't getting pregnant, is super respectful toward her parents. BUUUTTT... the cult also has some negative aspects. For example, it sacrifices the "sinners" (ranging from goths, to people who talk during movies), to the Great Head in the Sky, by strapping them to a bunch of balloons and letting them drift away.
Beth:"I don't know what to say. I mean, summer is doing really well here."
Jerry: "She's aced every test in potato class, and look how important potatoes have become!"
Beth: "She's not getting pregnant or doing drugs or missing curfew..."

*Sinner drifts by*

Sinner: "Please help me. You can reach me if you try. PLEASE HELP ME!!!"
Beth:"That's not our business, as long as Summer is thriving."


The whole episode is a pretty insightful take on religion as a whole, without specifically denouncing any particular set of beliefs. Yes, religion greatly helps our children in many ways to be better, morally upright members of society. It can also causes us to do some silly things, and make correlations where there is no causation (whether or not any particular religion is "true"). But it can also causes us to do things, and excuse things which are objectively wrong.

My point is, the Church, even if objectively "true", is a mixed bag. You and your children will be blessed by it. But you'll also probably be hurt by it as well. The goodness doesn't make up for bad, but the bad also doesn't take away the goodness. It's important to sift through the lessons it teaches.

To quote Brigham Young:
"What a pity it would be if we were led by one man to utter destruction! Are you afraid of this? I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by Him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken that influence they could give to their leaders, did they know for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the right way. Let every man and woman know, by the whispering of the Spirit of God to themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not."
"The whole world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel." - Horace Walpole

"Even though there are no ways of knowing for sure, there are ways of knowing for pretty sure."
-Lemony Snicket

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DarkJedi
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Re: Why do you stay?

Post by DarkJedi » 19 Jul 2018, 06:41

1) I guess I consider my relationship mostly "healthy." I suppose it depends on the definition of healthy. It's alive and not in intensive care at the moment though. There are certainly things I disagree with, I rarely go to Sunday School, etc. And sometimes even something kind of old that I thought I might have a handle on comes up and the dark side suddenly rises up.

2) Hmm. I don't know if I can play the what if with my spouse not being TBM. She is TBM, and I partly go because of her (that is, to keep the peace). But I do get some of my own satisfaction from going many times. I guess I might go less often without her and I would likely not stay past SM most of the time. But everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth (Mike Tyson) so it's hard to say.

Overall I'd say I stay because this is where I'm most comfortable and because of family ties, defining staying as attending church and not having my name removed. Those reasons have probably changed and will probably change. I actually don't think about it much, honestly. I do find some value in worshipping and particularly in the sacrament - but I'm also not opposed to the way other churches do worship (most of them anyway).
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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Roy
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Re: Why do you stay?

Post by Roy » 19 Jul 2018, 14:08

AmyJ wrote:
19 Jul 2018, 06:05
child care arrangements.
This is a pet peeve of mine. We live in an active, participative, self-reliant, and duty bound religion. DW was once in a presidency meeting and she brought up childcare for an RS activity. The response she received was that the husband needed to step up and give their wives a night off. Of course this does not really take into account the single mothers or women married to non-member husbands that might not feel super supportive of taking the kids so their wives can attend this meeting.

DW would offer my services as childcare helper for years to help ensure that this was provided. All I ask in return is that they make me up a plate of whatever refreshments they are having.
VioletFire wrote:
18 Jul 2018, 15:45
So why do you stay? Have your reasons for staying changed over the years? What is your definition of "staying"?
I stay because I believe the benefits to staying outweigh the costs. I believe that over the years I have slowly disentangled my identity from the church. Mormonism no longer defines me. It is something that I do - not Something that I am. I define staying as participating in the church to a degree that I can maitain relationships of fellowship with my church community and extended family.
VioletFire wrote:
18 Jul 2018, 15:45
I wonder if it will be strange for them to learn about principles at church and then see mom and dad not living them correctly?
DW and I have had this discussion often. She was worried about confusing the children by exposing them to different ways of doing things. Ultimately, I feel that indoctrinating them in black and white terms may be the bigger disservice. I want my children to be positive, productive, flexible, and respectful. I want them to know that drinking beer does not disqualify someone from being a good person. I also want them to know that an individual being kind of judgey about other people drinking beer does not disqualify them from being a good person.
VioletFire wrote:
18 Jul 2018, 15:45
Do you feel you have a healthy relationship with "The Church?"
Yes, I believe that I have created healthy boundaries that limit the amount of church abuse (perhaps better understood as mistreatment since abuse can be such a loaded term). I will not give or surrender of myself to the church to the point that I am overly vulnerable. OTOH, My expectations of the church and it's members are similarly low. I realize that most people lead busy & preoccupied lives and I tend to forgive them for not being aware of or particularly responsive to my family's every need. I like Dande's "just friends" analogy. I do not rely on the church as my only friend. I can diversify my friendship base and have different friends for different contexts and activities - church friends, work friends, basketball friends, play group friends, community service friends, etc. Some of my friends are better at fulfilling some of my needs than others. To expect any one friend to fulfill all of my needs all the time would not be realistic or fair to anyone.
VioletFire wrote:
18 Jul 2018, 15:45
Would you stay if your spouse wasn't TBM?
It is more than just my wife that tethers me to the church. In fact, sometimes after a frustrating event DW is tempted to stop going to the LDS church that we might more fully participate in a different church where we have friends. I tend to talk her down from these impulses as I know that she would regret and mourn the loss of some of our LDS specific benefits eventually. My kids, my parents, my in-laws, uncles, aunts, cousins, nieces, and nephews are all part of the LDS heritage tapestry. I am not particularly anxious to sever myself from that sense of belonging.

I could see DW and me becoming less active as we move into our empty nest phase (10 years away) - still not burning any bridges but maybe just needing less regular contact with the church.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

Curt Sunshine
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Re: Why do you stay?

Post by Curt Sunshine » 19 Jul 2018, 14:12

My upbringing in the LDS Church was wonderful. I was allowed and encouraged to be myself, even when it came to seeing some things differently than many people around me.

I stay for a number of reasons: to give back to my tribe, since my wife is an interesting mix of "TBM" and individual member (much like me but with different distinctions between the two classifications), because it has been a good foundation for my children (due partly to me trying to model my own parents' acceptance and to teach them to be themselves and see things as they do without pressure to conform), for what I see as a gloriously expansive and progressive theology (even with the doctrinal elements I don't like from the past and present that I attribute to the incorrect traditions of our fathers), to be a support for other members who are unique and might feel alone otherwise, out of comfortable habit, etc.

I am fully active. I have held almost every local calling imaginable, except Bishop and Stake President (thank goodness). I have been on the High Council three times, in three different stakes. I was a counselor in the Stake Mission Presidency way back in the day. I am a pinch-hit speaker in our ward when an assigned speaker backs out at the last minute. Part of my current calling, articulated when I was set apart, is to provide my unique perspective to the councils in our ward. The member of the Stake Presidency who set me apart used that phrasing, even though he is about as traditional as it gets. I hold a temple recommend and was a temple worker and coordinator until my educational program made it impossible to continue doing that for now. I pay tithing on net income, since I never "have" the difference between net and gross that is taken from my check before I get it (which means paying on gross simply makes NO sense to me). I serve on my own terms, even though I am fully active. I participate in what I can and feel ZERO guilt when I can't do more.

I interject my views regularly in church, but I NEVER do so in a way that I believe will be harmful to others who hear me. I seek to uplift not tear down, especially when opposing views brings joy and peace to others - except when commenting about practices or policies I believe are harmful, and even then I try hard to be as kind and charitable as possible in what I say.

I stay because Mormon is who I am - and I can be Mormon while being what I believe to be Christian and without being an asshat. I can be Mormon and be a true helper and servant and support.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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Heber13
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Re: Why do you stay?

Post by Heber13 » 19 Jul 2018, 20:33

Roy wrote:
19 Jul 2018, 14:08
My kids, my parents, my in-laws, uncles, aunts, cousins, nieces, and nephews are all part of the LDS heritage tapestry. I am not particularly anxious to sever myself from that sense of belonging.
:thumbup:
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

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SilentDawning
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Re: Why do you stay?

Post by SilentDawning » 19 Jul 2018, 22:53

VioletFire wrote:
18 Jul 2018, 15:45
So why do you stay?
Mostly because my family is involved. Also since I don't think I could belong to another church if the LDS one hasn't delivered.
Have your reasons for staying changed over the years?
Pre-commitment crisis -- testimony.
Post-comitment crisis -- see above -- family.
What is your definition of "staying"?
Not having my name removed, serving as much as is convenient without making too much sacrifice.
Do you feel you have a healthy relationship with "The Church?"
Not great. I don't have a lot of respect for parts of it, although there are parts I still admire.
Would you stay if your spouse wasn't TBM?
Probably the same level of activity. Maybe less.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

A man asked Jesus "do all roads lead to you?" Jesus responds,”most roads don’t lead anywhere, but I will travel any road to find you.” Adapted from The Shack, William Young

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Heber13
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Re: Why do you stay?

Post by Heber13 » 26 Jul 2018, 18:11

One recent example of why it is good to stay....

My son is the unfortunate victim of our divorce.

He lives with me during the school year and visits his mom during the summer.

She moved to Utah.

This was his first summer with her in Utah, at the age of 15.

New. No friends. No connections.

But...the ward they live in reached out to him and asked him to go to youth conference. Not knowing anyone, he said he would go none the less.

The YM president and president of the teachers quorum visited them in their home. They gave him the info and made him feel welcome.

He went to youth conference and had wonderful experiences with a well organized youth week of activities including service projects and also making things with his hands like pioneers. He loved it.

He met kids who invited him into their group. Kids who were good kids, and nice, and really funny. He met cute girls with good moral standards and fun to be around.

After youth conference the kids he met have stayed in touch inviting him to play basketball and go see movies with them and hang out.

He now has a new set of friends.

All happening a state away from me and his high school friends back home.

As he told me all about it over the phone...he said how much his testimony has grown, he learned so many things about the restoration that helped him feel good about himself.

He wants to now study the D&C on his own this summer and feels like he has made a whole new group of friends.

I'm so grateful for the church organization that provides opportunities to my kids. I know their experiences will vary by child...but they get to have the opportunity to experience things and make up their minds what they believe. At least they get the chance to experience good things.

For that, I'm grateful.

It doesn't change what I believe about doctrine or stage 5 faith.

Simply....it is worth it to stay when my family benefits from it.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

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