Everybody Poops

Public forum for those seeking support for their experience in the LDS Church.
User avatar
SamBee
Posts: 4898
Joined: 14 Mar 2010, 04:55

Re: Everybody Poops

Post by SamBee » 07 May 2018, 04:49

NightSG wrote:
06 May 2018, 21:32
dande48 wrote:
04 May 2018, 16:50
-Bishops, Priests, and all clerics were barred from marriage in 305AD.
-St. Anthony established monasticism for the Church in 305AD.
-The Nicean Creed was made in 325AD.
...and pretty much tossed the idea of celibate clergy. As a result, it was generally ignored for another 800 years before finally being codified in 1139.
Exactly. The East-West Schism occurred in 1054. Early enough for the Orthodox Church to avoid taking the policy on board.

It's not exactly encouraged but Orthodox clergy married.

The so called Celtic Church which existed for centuries after this supposed ban, also allowed marriage of clergy and monks.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

User avatar
dande48
Posts: 966
Joined: 24 Jan 2016, 16:35
Location: Wherever there is danger

Re: Everybody Poops

Post by dande48 » 07 May 2018, 06:49

NightSG wrote:
06 May 2018, 21:32
dande48 wrote:
04 May 2018, 16:50
-Bishops, Priests, and all clerics were barred from marriage in 305AD.
-St. Anthony established monasticism for the Church in 305AD.
-The Nicean Creed was made in 325AD.
...and pretty much tossed the idea of celibate clergy. As a result, it was generally ignored for another 800 years before finally being codified in 1139.
They banned priests from marrying after ordination, which was loosened from absolute celibacy. In 385AD, the Pope decreed that married priests could no longer sleep with their wives. I agree it's sticky, that the Church was large, and Christiandom as a whole couldn't decide on their basic doctrines from the very beginning. They were also very fond of excommunicating anyone who disagreed. But policy is still policy, even if it has a hard time being enforced. 567AD decreed any clergy sleeping with their wife would be excommunicated. They were selling off the wives and children of clergy as slaves by 1095AD.

Back to the not-so-original post, do you believe that the Catholic Church, as it was from 300-400 AD, had the spiritual guidance and authority from God to choose which books were the "Word of God", and would end up in our modern New Testament? As the original posts states, "Everybody Poops". Do certain former "poopy" actions of any Church (whether the Catholics, the Mormons, or the Scientologists) negate the Divine legitimacy of other actions we may happen to agree with? Because, frankly, I think they do.
"The whole world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel." - Horace Walpole

"Even though there are no ways of knowing for sure, there are ways of knowing for pretty sure."
-Lemony Snicket

User avatar
SamBee
Posts: 4898
Joined: 14 Mar 2010, 04:55

Re: Everybody Poops

Post by SamBee » 07 May 2018, 06:54

Priests were still marrying in more remote parts of Europe, and there was even hereditary priests in Ireland and Scotland up to the turn of the millenium.

Haggarty/MacTaggart is a surname which derives from this tradition.

As previously stated, the Roman Catholic church was not really a thing at the time of the canon. It didn't even emerge as a proper force until hundreds of years after the Roman empire fell.

They would not have considered themselves as anything apart from true believers - as opposed to gnostics and heretics - as there was no true split with the Orthodox church etc.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

User avatar
dande48
Posts: 966
Joined: 24 Jan 2016, 16:35
Location: Wherever there is danger

Re: Everybody Poops

Post by dande48 » 07 May 2018, 07:33

SamBee wrote:
07 May 2018, 06:54
As previously stated, the Roman Catholic church was not really a thing at the time of the canon. It didn't even emerge as a proper force until hundreds of years after the Roman empire fell.
Alright, Sam. What do you call the those Christians who called themselves Catholics in 4th century?
"The whole world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel." - Horace Walpole

"Even though there are no ways of knowing for sure, there are ways of knowing for pretty sure."
-Lemony Snicket

Roy
Posts: 4959
Joined: 07 Oct 2010, 14:16
Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: Everybody Poops

Post by Roy » 07 May 2018, 11:25

dande48 wrote:
07 May 2018, 06:49
Do certain former "poopy" actions of any Church (whether the Catholics, the Mormons, or the Scientologists) negate the Divine legitimacy of other actions we may happen to agree with? Because, frankly, I think they do.
In life we must all wade through "poop". We must learn to discern the good from the bad and learn to choose the good. Many churches can be vehicles of preforming much good here on earth and directing adherents to even higher good in the form of ideals and hopes. All churches that I am aware of also have elements of bad.

For me this is a separate question to claims of "divine legitimacy". How much "poop" could God tolerate in a person and still give that person authority to bless and curse in His name? The question of authority is interesting because it depends entirely on elements that are unknown (Like who might really be speaking on God's behalf and who is not).

Therefore, I believe it wise that each of us develop our own olfactory senses that we may determine more or less for ourselves what is "poop" and what is not.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

User avatar
SamBee
Posts: 4898
Joined: 14 Mar 2010, 04:55

Re: Everybody Poops

Post by SamBee » 07 May 2018, 15:06

dande48 wrote:
07 May 2018, 07:33
SamBee wrote:
07 May 2018, 06:54
As previously stated, the Roman Catholic church was not really a thing at the time of the canon. It didn't even emerge as a proper force until hundreds of years after the Roman empire fell.
Alright, Sam. What do you call the those Christians who called themselves Catholics in 4th century?
Christians... that's it. The Catholic thing came about in contradistinction to the later Orthodox and Protestant movements.

If I was struggling I would call them non-/anti-gnostics or Trinitarians which they would not identify as.

The Roman Catholic church has a terrible habit of appropriating the early church. There is little indication that Rome was to be the head of the church other than a dubious forged document and a mistranslated statement to Peter. The early "popes" were not supreme leaders of Christendom, they were at best primus inter pares due to being in the imperial capital.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

User avatar
SamBee
Posts: 4898
Joined: 14 Mar 2010, 04:55

Re: Everybody Poops

Post by SamBee » 07 May 2018, 15:18

Roy wrote:
07 May 2018, 11:25
dande48 wrote:
07 May 2018, 06:49
Do certain former "poopy" actions of any Church (whether the Catholics, the Mormons, or the Scientologists) negate the Divine legitimacy of other actions we may happen to agree with? Because, frankly, I think they do.
In life we must all wade through "poop". We must learn to discern the good from the bad and learn to choose the good. Many churches can be vehicles of preforming much good here on earth and directing adherents to even higher good in the form of ideals and hopes. All churches that I am aware of also have elements of bad.

For me this is a separate question to claims of "divine legitimacy". How much "poop" could God tolerate in a person and still give that person authority to bless and curse in His name? The question of authority is interesting because it depends entirely on elements that are unknown (Like who might really be speaking on God's behalf and who is not).

Therefore, I believe it wise that each of us develop our own olfactory senses that we may determine more or less for ourselves what is "poop" and what is not.
This is a very good question. Where exactly do we draw that line? I believe we are all broken vessels, but where is that line?

History is full of such paradoxes. Stalin was an evil man and a mass murderer yet he may have actually changed history for the better (note not for the best).
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

User avatar
dande48
Posts: 966
Joined: 24 Jan 2016, 16:35
Location: Wherever there is danger

Re: Everybody Poops

Post by dande48 » 07 May 2018, 15:54

SamBee wrote:
07 May 2018, 06:54
Christians... that's it. The Catholic thing came about in contradistinction to the later Orthodox and Protestant movements.
No, the Catholic thing came about in 4th century for certain Christians to distinguish themselves from the other Christians who held "heretical" beliefs. How would you distinguish those in the fourth century, who called themselves and identified as "Catholic"(not Roman Catholic), and belonged to what they called "The Catholic Church" in order to distinguish themselves from other Christian groups?
"The whole world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel." - Horace Walpole

"Even though there are no ways of knowing for sure, there are ways of knowing for pretty sure."
-Lemony Snicket

User avatar
SamBee
Posts: 4898
Joined: 14 Mar 2010, 04:55

Re: Everybody Poops

Post by SamBee » 07 May 2018, 16:08

dande48 wrote:
07 May 2018, 15:54
SamBee wrote:
07 May 2018, 06:54
Christians... that's it. The Catholic thing came about in contradistinction to the later Orthodox and Protestant movements.
No, the Catholic thing came about in 4th century for certain Christians to distinguish themselves from the other Christians who held "heretical" beliefs. How would you distinguish those in the fourth century, who called themselves and identified as "Catholic"(not Roman Catholic), and belonged to what they called "The Catholic Church" in order to distinguish themselves from other Christian groups?
Trinitarian, orthodox plus a ream of terms about their theology.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

User avatar
dande48
Posts: 966
Joined: 24 Jan 2016, 16:35
Location: Wherever there is danger

Re: Everybody Poops

Post by dande48 » 07 May 2018, 16:39

SamBee wrote:
07 May 2018, 16:08
Trinitarian, orthodox plus a ream of terms about their theology.
Well, that's just rude. 4th Century Trinitarian-Orthodox-Anti-Arian-Homoiousian-ists wouldn't have liked that at all.
"The whole world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel." - Horace Walpole

"Even though there are no ways of knowing for sure, there are ways of knowing for pretty sure."
-Lemony Snicket

Post Reply