The creation

Public forum for those seeking support for their experience in the LDS Church.
Opalsky
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Re: The creation

Post by Opalsky » 06 Apr 2018, 07:33

Roy wrote:
Opalsky wrote:
05 Apr 2018, 07:05
Also I have been told it wasn't God who created this earth directly but it was through his son Jesus Christ that the earth was made under Gods direction. Is this solid doctrine?
Some great resources at this link for FairMormon: https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Morm ... nd_Jehovah

Essentially the bible is not entirely clear on the point of who created the earth. Much of the bible is monotheistic and teaches one God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel. That God is called by Elohim, Jehovah, and Adonai as various titles depending on what roles or attributes the writer was trying to emphasize.

When Christianity came along there was a big question as to how Jesus fits in with God the father. Is he a prophet/messiah/promised king? is he the son of God? is he the personification of God? Lots of different ways to interpret the scriptures.

What eventually became pretty commonplace in the western church was the idea of the Trinity. Jesus is everything. He is messiah, prophet, promised king, Son of God, and personification of God - all rolled up into one person.

I have reason to believe that the trinity was still the dominant understanding of God during the early years of the church. The BoM seems very Trinitarian (Much more than the bible).

Eventually The understanding of the "Godhead" evolved with God and Jesus as more definitely separate individuals. Still there was not clarity as to the titles of the different members of the Godhead. For example, "Nineteenth-century Mormons—including Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and John Taylor—generally used Jehovah as the name of God the Father"
In 1916 the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles issued a doctrinal statement on the relationship between the Father and the Son: "Jesus the Son has represented and yet represents Elohim His Father in power and authority. This is true of Christ in His preexistent, antemortal, or unembodied state, in the which He was known as Jehovah; also during His embodiment in the flesh; …and since that period in His resurrected state"
Since 1916 the LDS church has been fairly consistent with assigning the name Elohim to God the Father and Jehovah to Jesus Christ.
As far as I understand it God is the father of our spirits. Christ, the Jehovah and son of God can be considered a father symbolically as well simply because he atoned for us and we can be spiritually reborn through him. God the father, his son and the Holy Ghost comprise the Godhead which is one unit. Kind of like how a family is "one" but has separate beings. I don't fully understand the nature of the holy spirit and who he is or his history in the gospel but I know the role he plays for us and I do believe in the spirit because I've felt that presence.


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Opalsky
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Joined: 24 Mar 2018, 23:58

Re: The creation

Post by Opalsky » 06 Apr 2018, 07:37

dande48 wrote:I don't believe God deliberately tries to fool anyone, by planting false evidence. You can take what you learn from science, and what you hear from in Church and mesh them together in a hundred different ways.The Church gives no definitive answers, beyond what's already been said (not including what they've redacted).
Neil Degrass Tyson wrote: Every Scientific truth goes through three phases.
First, they deny it.
Second, they say it comflicts with the bible.
Third, they say they have known it all along.
But whether the story is true or not, what difference would it make? Many of the greatest stories on the nature of man, our relationship to one another and to God, our trials and suffering, come from works of fiction. Whether Adam and Eve were created directly, or evolved from monkeys, or never existed doesn't matter. What matters is their story and the lessons it teaches us.
Opalsky wrote:
05 Apr 2018, 07:05
Also I have been told it wasn't God who created this earth directly but it was through his son Jesus Christ that the earth was made under Gods direction. Is this solid doctrine?
It's in the Perl of Great Price, as well as the temple ceremony. So I'd say it's official doctrine, if that's what you're asking.
I think it does matter because why can't church doctrine be more direct? Why all the riddles?


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dande48
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Re: The creation

Post by dande48 » 06 Apr 2018, 08:50

Opalsky wrote:
06 Apr 2018, 07:37
I think it does matter because why can't church doctrine be more direct? Why all the riddles?
Because we don't have all the answers.
"The whole world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel." - Horace Walpole

"Even though there are no ways of knowing for sure, there are ways of knowing for pretty sure."
-Lemony Snicket

Roadrunner
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Joined: 25 Sep 2012, 15:17

Re: The creation

Post by Roadrunner » 06 Apr 2018, 14:57

"Ties go to science" in my opinion. In other words if there is conflict go with science. Religion and Science are parallel paths both searching for Truth (capital T) and both have detours and backtracks but at least good scientists will admit when they are wrong.

Therefore:
I believe evolution is scientific fact with relatively minor questions about details at the margins.
Laws of physics rules the universe so something like the Big Bang happened. Still lots of blank spaces to fill in about the origin of the universe and how it will end.
I'm not sure there is a god, a pre-mortal life, or a post mortal life - but I hope there is something good and worthwhile afterwards, otherwise we are bit players in a grand cosmic joke.
I worry about the literalness of virtually no religious doctrine whatsoever and it has made my life much easier.

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Beefster
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Re: The creation

Post by Beefster » 06 Apr 2018, 16:12

I go with Occam's Razor on this one. There is strong evidence that death has always been around and a literal belief in Adam and Eve leads to an insane amount of mental gymnastics I'm not willing to do. This leads me to conclude that the story is purely metaphorical, and the only way it can reasonably be literal is death was temporarily turned off for the Garden of Eden. Adam was probably just the first spiritually aware human being if he was a literal person, but I suspect religion formed more organically and gradually than that
Boys are governed by rules. Men are governed by principles.

Often I hear doubt being presented as the opposite of faith but I think certainty does a better job of filling that role. Doubts can help faith grow, certainty almost always makes faith shrink. --nibbler

Roy
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Re: The creation

Post by Roy » 08 Apr 2018, 10:51

I like that in the temple Adam pretty clearly represents mankind and eve womankind.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

AmyJ
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Re: The creation

Post by AmyJ » 09 May 2018, 12:11

In our class this week, we studied about the Creation, so I figured this was a good post to bump up and comment on.

In the conference talk, "The Creation" by President Nelson, he gave this quote:
While visiting the British Museum in London one day, I read a most unusual book. It is not scripture. It is an English translation of an ancient Egyptian manuscript. From it, I quote a dialogue between the Father and the Son. Referring to His Father, Jehovah—the pre-mortal Lord—says:
“He took the clay from the hand of the angel, and made Adam according to Our image and likeness, and He left him lying for forty days and forty nights without putting breath into him. And He heaved sighs over him daily, saying, ‘If I put breath into this [man], he must suffer many pains.’ And I said unto My Father, ‘Put breath into him; I will be an advocate for him.’ And My Father said unto Me, ‘If I put breath into him, My beloved Son, Thou wilt be obliged to go down into the world, and to suffer many pains for him before Thou shalt have redeemed him, and made him to come back to his primal state.’ And I said unto My Father, ‘Put breath into him; I will be his advocate, and I will go down into the world, and will fulfill Thy command.’”
I know that this is one narrative about the creation being quoted by another creation narrative (technically a creation narrative summary), but I would like to take comfort in the idea that something like this conversation may have actually happened - that there was an acknowledgement of some of the known costs of humanity, and that there was an advocate for us.

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dande48
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Re: The creation

Post by dande48 » 09 May 2018, 12:39

I like that version. Thanks for sharing, Amy.
"The whole world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel." - Horace Walpole

"Even though there are no ways of knowing for sure, there are ways of knowing for pretty sure."
-Lemony Snicket

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