What are the implications of not paying tithing?

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Sheldon
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Re: What are the implications of not paying tithing?

Post by Sheldon » 27 Jan 2018, 18:34

sdj wrote:
27 Jan 2018, 17:58
If I don't have a recommend how do I buy garments? Can my wife just buy them for me? Am I not supposed to wear garments anymore?
All you need is a membership number to buy garments online. If you walk into a distribution center, they just look up your name to confirm you are endowed. You don't have to have a TR or even be active to buy them

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SamBee
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Re: What are the implications of not paying tithing?

Post by SamBee » 28 Jan 2018, 09:46

Sheldon wrote:
27 Jan 2018, 18:34
sdj wrote:
27 Jan 2018, 17:58
If I don't have a recommend how do I buy garments? Can my wife just buy them for me? Am I not supposed to wear garments anymore?
All you need is a membership number to buy garments online. If you walk into a distribution center, they just look up your name to confirm you are endowed. You don't have to have a TR or even be active to buy them
If you have an LDS account you can buy them online.

http://store.lds.org
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

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SilentDawning
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Re: What are the implications of not paying tithing?

Post by SilentDawning » 29 Jan 2018, 05:48

Sheldon wrote:
26 Jan 2018, 15:19
Here is a very nuanced way of looking at tithing found at Pure Mormonism blog . I am NOT endorsing this method of calculating your tithing, but only offer it up as another way some people are doing it.
Sheldon -- that article is way too long and verbose for me....do you have a quick comment or expose on what the point is of it?

My take on tithing -- do what brings you the most happiness while preserving your family relationships. I didn't pay my tithing and my daughter got married. So I didn't get to go into the temple to see her sealed. It was far less of a problem than I thought it would be. A few people noticed I was not in the sealing room, but then I was outside the steps waiting for the bride and groom afterwards, part of the pictures, gave her away at a ring exchanging ceremony, part of the reception and other festivities.

I suspect that when my son gets to higher ordinations in the priesthood, my non-tithing status may be an issue, and I will deal with it similarily. Heck, if I was a Bishop I'd feel bad not allowing a man to ordain his son -- a man who is active in the Ward and contributing. How had a long active history of paying tithing, who supports his family, etcetera. Just hope that when the time comes, you have a Bishop that won't hold that against you.

I think your biggest challenge is to make sure the existing power structure doesn't know you don't believe. I think that will keep you out of such ordinances more than not paying tithing. Who would you deny the priviledge of baptizing and confirming their own child - -a non-believer who doesn't pay tithing, or a believer who doesn't pay tithing?

I would deny the non-believer over the believer....that's why I never share my opinion with the local people -- ever. Although I don't consider myself a non-believer. More like a wounded warrior.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

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Roy
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Re: What are the implications of not paying tithing?

Post by Roy » 29 Jan 2018, 11:23

SilentDawning wrote:
29 Jan 2018, 05:48
Sheldon -- that article is way too long and verbose for me....do you have a quick comment or expose on what the point is of it?
The condensed version of the article is that tithing on surplus, profit, gain, extra, or growth may be a tithing method with some historical support.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

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Sheldon
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Re: What are the implications of not paying tithing?

Post by Sheldon » 29 Jan 2018, 23:22

Roy wrote:
29 Jan 2018, 11:23
SilentDawning wrote:
29 Jan 2018, 05:48
Sheldon -- that article is way too long and verbose for me....do you have a quick comment or expose on what the point is of it?
The condensed version of the article is that tithing on surplus, profit, gain, extra, or growth may be a tithing method with some historical support.
Yes, you pay tithing on what is left over after you've paid all your bills (the surplus)

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SamBee
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Re: What are the implications of not paying tithing?

Post by SamBee » 30 Jan 2018, 04:27

Sheldon wrote:
29 Jan 2018, 23:22
Roy wrote:
29 Jan 2018, 11:23
SilentDawning wrote:
29 Jan 2018, 05:48
Sheldon -- that article is way too long and verbose for me....do you have a quick comment or expose on what the point is of it?
The condensed version of the article is that tithing on surplus, profit, gain, extra, or growth may be a tithing method with some historical support.
Yes, you pay tithing on what is left over after you've paid all your bills (the surplus)
It's the only way to do it IMHO.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

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DarkJedi
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Re: What are the implications of not paying tithing?

Post by DarkJedi » 30 Jan 2018, 06:02

I think the 'No one is justified in making any other statement than this" applies here. I don't pay on gross and never have, and what I pay has changed over time. Bottom line is that it's up to each of us and what we feel comfortable with and it's nobody else's business.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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SilentDawning
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Re: What are the implications of not paying tithing?

Post by SilentDawning » 01 Feb 2018, 12:21

DarkJedi wrote:
30 Jan 2018, 06:02
I think the 'No one is justified in making any other statement than this" applies here. I don't pay on gross and never have, and what I pay has changed over time. Bottom line is that it's up to each of us and what we feel comfortable with and it's nobody else's business.
Interesting that subsequent prophets didn't seem to get the "no one is justified in making any other statement than this" pronouncement from the FP who wrote the 1970's letter on the topic. Howard W. Hunter went so far as to describe what it was in more detail, and so have Bishops I have known (payment on gross).

Ultimately, no one is going to audit your books, so it is a matter of conscience...
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"Stage 5 is where you no longer believe the gospel as its literally or traditionally taught. Nonetheless, you find your own way to be active and at peace within it". -- SD

The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

My introduction: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1576

Curt Sunshine
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Re: What are the implications of not paying tithing?

Post by Curt Sunshine » 01 Feb 2018, 13:58

The only issue with paying on excess, to me, is that it leaves open the possibility or likelihood that someone will calculate their expenses to include everything they spend, not just necessities.

If you include credit card payments, dinners at restaurants, ball games, movie tickets, vacation costs, etc. prior to paying tithing, I would say you aren't trying to embrace the spirit of the law at all.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

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nibbler
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Re: What are the implications of not paying tithing?

Post by nibbler » 01 Feb 2018, 15:03

I've posted about this before. This is from the church's handbook from 1963.
General Church Handbook; Number 19 1963; page 67 wrote:What Is a Tithe? A tithe is one-tenth of a wage earner's gross income; a tithe is one-tenth of a professional man's income after deducting standard business expenses; a tithe is one-tenth of a farmer's income after deducting standard business operating expenses. A farmer should not include as standard business operating expense the produce which is used to sustain his family. A tithe is one-tenth of an individual's interest.
All emphasis (italics and bold) as present in the original document.

We all know about the policy that superseded it in the first presidency letter in 1970. My only point is that at one point in time tithing on gross for a wage earner was a thing, and you know how things happen at church... when there's a change in policy there's seldom any effort to correct the old way of thinking, we often rely on the passage of time to kill old policy and leaders are often more familiar with the rules that were in place when they were young, so that's what they teach and enforce.

For the first 20 years of membership in this church I had only ever heard payment on gross was acceptable. We even had lessons where mock pay stubs were handed out and class members were to calculate the full tithe, where the only correct answer was on gross. In those 20 years not once did I hear someone in the class challenge the idea, never did anyone go down the "between you and the lord" route or the "no one is justified" route. I chanced upon alternate methods other than gross as being an acceptable full tithe in my own personal studies. Up until then I always thought that you couldn't answer "yes" to the question about whether you were a full tithe payer during tithing settlement if you paid so much as one cent less than 10% of gross.

So now I'll be the one to raise the current policy in future lessons on tithing... because I still have yet to hear someone do it.

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