What's wrong with masturbation?

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Roy
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Re: What's wrong with masturbation?

Post by Roy » 02 Jan 2018, 13:27

In my last post I focused on how these types of thoughts and quotes influenced my behavior and self image as a young man both before and after temple endowment, mission, and temple marriage.

After several years of being married DW and I began to be able to talk about M in small doses. Would it be acceptable if we were apart for a long period of time? We also talked some about my pre-marriage struggle and feelings. As time progressed and I have been able to be more and more open about myself. I am not a "deviant or pervert". I do not pressure DW into things she is not comfortable with. I am a loving husband and father. I am fulfilled in the relationship. Those fear (and fear mongering) turned out to be unfounded.

[out of an abundance of caution to keep this thread focused and maintaining site rules against sexually explicit comments I am self editing my previous post. Suffice it to say that many women, including DW do not achieve O through intercourse. Without M, we may never have discovered how to make that happen for her] The FAIR article might make it seem that this was selfishness on my wife's part. I assume that the author of the article would give some latitude for married couples to find what works for them but the following quotes are troubling on this point.
Masturbation and intercourse are simply different. One who masturbates frequently has a very direct knowledge of what actions bring pleasure most effectively. It can be difficult or impossible for a spouse to reproduce the pleasure that a masturbator has learned how to produce on his or her own. Thus, sexuality, if not expressed in the context of a loving and devoted relationship, turns inward and becomes a focus on self. It is spiritually dangerous to use sexuality for self when God intends for it to be used to help us overcome our love of self.

Jesus makes clear that to be his disciple we must be prepared to sacrifice our comfort
I am aware that the standards and teachings for married people and for unmarried teens and YSA can and should have differences.

For my own children (not yet teenagers) I have tried to teach them about the amazing thing that is the human body. I have described the skeletal, muscular, or digestive systems as I massage their back. The heart beats and the lungs breath even when sleeping (thank goodness). Poop and pee is not gross or shameful (though rightfully done in private) but rather the natural result of eating or drinking. As my children become older and start asking questions I try to follow the same pattern. Reproductive organs and processes are amazing - bordering on the miraculous! They are not gross or shameful. Like so many parts and processes of the body these are to be respected and cared for.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

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SamBee
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Re: What's wrong with masturbation?

Post by SamBee » 02 Jan 2018, 15:58

Criminy Roy, I'm going to have to take a cold shower after reading about your wife!

One thing I would warn children about is STDs. They are at epidemic proportions now. M is better than unprotected acts, but chlamidya is at an all time high among the young in developed countries.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

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nibbler
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Re: What's wrong with masturbation?

Post by nibbler » 02 Jan 2018, 16:53

Every time I see this thread bumped it's a cross between:

Image

and

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wKN3OF7oiI&t=0m23s

IOW I think of Mike Judge. :crazy: :crazy:
Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
― Jesus

squarepeg
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Joined: 17 Feb 2017, 12:51

Re: What's wrong with masturbation?

Post by squarepeg » 04 Jan 2018, 17:28

Roy wrote:
02 Jan 2018, 13:27

After several years of being married DW and I began to be able to talk about M in small doses. Would it be acceptable if we were apart for a long period of time? We also talked some about my pre-marriage struggle and feelings. As time progressed and I have been able to be more and more open about myself. I am not a "deviant or pervert". I do not pressure DW into things she is not comfortable with. I am a loving husband and father. I am fulfilled in the relationship. Those fear (and fear mongering) turned out to be unfounded.

I think we might be better off in the Church teaching everyone to do what you and your wife have done, Roy, rather than having black-and-white rules about what is and isn't acceptable when people are in their own bedrooms. Isn't it more important to do what strengthens your particular marriage relationship, and your particular relationship with Heavenly Father, than following a list of prescribed and prohibited behaviors? What happened to, "I teach them correct principles and the people govern themselves"?

We pride ourselves on living the "higher law" and rising above the old rigid rules of the Children of Israel in the Old Testament. But then we seem have a tendency to want to add some of those black and white rules back into the Gospel. Why do we do that? Are we living the higher law, or aren't we?

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Heber13
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Re: What's wrong with masturbation?

Post by Heber13 » 05 Jan 2018, 14:59

squarepeg wrote:
04 Jan 2018, 17:28
Are we living the higher law, or aren't we?
I often feel we are not having the higher laws given to us, but the lowest common denominator for all of us because they don't know how to manage the organization without a standard for all...and that standard is a compromise (for example, TR interview questions as the measure of worthiness). That seems to be when I don't agree with things, when it is below what it should be, or more than it should be. The lesser law has more specifics. The Higher law is less detail and more principle based. Right?

Regarding this thread...it seems the topic falls into the realm of lesser laws, perhaps for the purpose of adapting to the capacity of weakest of all saints. It should, therefore, fall to lesser consequence if broken.

Don't ask for direction on it from leaders, or you will get their opinion as if doctrine.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

squarepeg
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Re: What's wrong with masturbation?

Post by squarepeg » 07 Jan 2018, 17:06

Heber13 wrote:
05 Jan 2018, 14:59

Don't ask for direction on it from leaders, or you will get their opinion as if doctrine.
Thanks, Heber. I think that's generally true. :lol: My previous bishop was one reason I felt I might be able to come back to church after several years of not attending, because he was exceptional for saying, "I don't know. There are a lot of things I really don't understand." When I presented my concerns to him explaining that I'd had experiences that I'd not been able to fit into Restored Gospel theology, he, remarkably, didn't give me his opinion as doctrine; he just admitted ignorance. As frustrating as it was to STILL not have answers, I respected that so highly. I thought, ok, I can go back to church with this guy as my bishop.

I think you're spot-on saying that the Law-of-Moses-esque rules are a compromise for the purpose of running the Organization. I really feel like all hell wouldn't break loose if our temples were like Hindu, Buddhist, and Daoist temples where no "recommend" is required. Most people whose hearts aren't in a spiritual place with righteous desires are not going to bother going to the temple; I mean, it's like church on steroids. Maybe we're worried about people stealing the furniture? But that's another topic.

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Heber13
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Re: What's wrong with masturbation?

Post by Heber13 » 08 Jan 2018, 09:19

squarepeg wrote:
07 Jan 2018, 17:06
As frustrating as it was to STILL not have answers, I respected that so highly. I thought, ok, I can go back to church with this guy as my bishop.
Thanks for correcting me on this...my sweeping statement was not fair to all those good leaders out there that are strong enough to say they don't know when they don't know. There are good leaders that just want to help and are trying...and some just don't know what they don't know...and so I shouldn't make it sound like discussing it with leaders is always going to go wrong. It's the leadership roulette. They probably know more than I do about life stuff.

Perhaps what I should say is to be wise, and use your own judgment on these things, and if you need some help to discuss us...take it with a grain of salt and see if it helps your or not.

squarepeg, I'm glad you've had a good leader helping you feel comfortable going to church in the past. Thanks for sharing that.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

squarepeg
Posts: 120
Joined: 17 Feb 2017, 12:51

Re: What's wrong with masturbation?

Post by squarepeg » 08 Jan 2018, 09:53

Heber13 wrote:
08 Jan 2018, 09:19
squarepeg wrote:
07 Jan 2018, 17:06
As frustrating as it was to STILL not have answers, I respected that so highly. I thought, ok, I can go back to church with this guy as my bishop.
Thanks for correcting me on this...my sweeping statement was not fair to all those good leaders out there that are strong enough to say they don't know when they don't know. There are good leaders that just want to help and are trying...and some just don't know what they don't know...and so I shouldn't make it sound like discussing it with leaders is always going to go wrong. It's the leadership roulette.
This particular bishop was a rare gem. He was called to be bishop after going through treatment for non Hodgkin's Lymphoma, when had just been laid off after working for the same large company for 25+ years, and had just been diagnosed with prostate cancer and was going through radiation. Fabulous timing for being called as bishop, no? But seriously, he knew what real suffering was like and he wasn't going to downplay it in order to maintain credibility as this all-knowing, wise priesthood leader. He had the deeper wisdom and deep humility that comes from being put through the ringer and staring death in the face daily for years on end. Most bishops have had personal challenges, but often not on that level. Our current Bishop is different. I'm not sure what he would say about this issue in this thread. I'm still working up the courage to speak to him about mine and my husband's decision not to allow our kids to answer detailed questions about the LoC in interviews, and I kinda hope masturbation doesn't even come up, heh.

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