Help talking to a spouse

Public forum for those seeking support for their experience in the LDS Church.
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FaithfulSkeptic
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Re: Help talking to a spouse

Post by FaithfulSkeptic » 26 Jun 2017, 15:30

Such great advice here!

DT, I just wanted to let you know how much I identify with what you're experiencing. I had a very similar experience in coming out to my TBM wife after the November 2015 policy was announced. I didn't want to say anything, but she could tell that I was really bothered by something. When she asked me why I couldn't just believe, I even used the same Santa Claus analogy (not a good idea). She was (and still is) so hurt by my unbelief.

It sucks. I can only echo the advice of others - Love her, let her grieve, give it time, it's you that has changed, not her, focus on what you do have in common, etc.

But don't keep your frustrations bottled up. That's what we are for! I've found this and other places to be very healing to express things that I can't express to my wife. Hang in there!
I know of no sign on the doors of our meetinghouses that says, “Your testimony must be this tall to enter.” Dieter F. Uchtdorf, October 2014

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LookingHard
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Re: Help talking to a spouse

Post by LookingHard » 26 Jun 2017, 19:58

Amen Faithful Skeptic!

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Orson
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Re: Help talking to a spouse

Post by Orson » 27 Jun 2017, 13:13

I DO believe in Santa!!

This is the key:
DoubtingTom wrote:
20 Jun 2017, 13:38

I might get hung up on whether or not there is a literal Father in Heaven that we are trying to become more like, but that doesn't change that I believe it's important to learn and grow and improve from our experiences.
I was in much the same situation Tom. Forgive me for not reading everything in this thread, but I agree with the theme of working to love and rise above. For me and my marriage I realized I needed to reflect on what I DO believe. I may compare the Santa story to the church a little more than I should, but I like to focus on how much I do believe about both. No I don't think there is a single man dressed in a red suit that flys around the world in one night and gives a gift to every child, but I deeply believe in the spirit of Santa. I don't believe God would want me to believe in the nonsense, but I do believe good grows out of seeing good. If you get hung up on the term "God" maybe you start there. We all see what we are able, we all create our own meaning for the intangibles. We get into deeep deep do do when we try to make our own personal conception of intangible or eternal concepts look exactly like what we think others views are.

Let it come to you, then trust in your own relationship with the eternal.
My avatar - both physical and spiritual.

I first found faith, and thought I had all truth. I then discovered doubt, and claimed a more accurate truth. Now I’ve greeted paradox and a deeper truth than I have ever known.

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SilentDawning
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Re: Help talking to a spouse

Post by SilentDawning » 28 Jun 2017, 06:53

Orson wrote:
27 Jun 2017, 13:13
I DO believe in Santa!!

I may compare the Santa story to the church a little more than I should, but I like to focus on how much I do believe about both. No I don't think there is a single man dressed in a red suit that flys around the world in one night and gives a gift to every child, but I deeply believe in the spirit of Santa. I don't believe God would want me to believe in the nonsense, but I do believe good grows out of seeing good.
My question is that if you don't believe in his literal existence, but only the metaphor or symbol Santa represents, why is it worth 10% of your income for life? All your time, and the ethical conundrum of being expected to share the LDS gospel with others as if it's the literal truth?

I can see adhering to it for social, marital, parental, familial or community reasons, but not full-blown TR holding status when fundamentally, a person doesn't believe it is what it said it is.

It reminds me a bit of people who say they believe Christ was a good man, but not divine. A friend of mine, when I shared that perspective with him, said if Christ was such a good man, how could he lie about a thing like that?? (referring to his Son of God status). It gets confusing, an uneccessarily overly expensive real quick when there isn't literal belief at some basic level.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"Stage 5 is where you no longer believe the gospel as its literally or traditionally taught. Nonetheless, you find your own way to be active and at peace within it". -- SD

The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

My introduction: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1576

Curt Sunshine
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Re: Help talking to a spouse

Post by Curt Sunshine » 28 Jun 2017, 10:01

I pay tithing to help fund the ecclesiastical aspects of the Church - the meetinghouses, temples, universities, seminaries, etc. Period.

I do it somewhat for me but mostly for others. It is the same reason I don't mind the concept of taxes, even if I don't like some of the ways those funds are spent. (and I have FAR less issue with the way tithing is spent than the way taxes are spent)
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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Heber13
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Re: Help talking to a spouse

Post by Heber13 » 29 Jun 2017, 10:53

SilentDawning wrote:
28 Jun 2017, 06:53
why is it worth 10% of your income for life?
Santa isn't real, but somebody still has to pay for the cost of setting up the display in the mall for the kids. Donating to it is for a good cause, still, even without literal beliefs.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

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SilentDawning
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Re: Help talking to a spouse

Post by SilentDawning » 29 Jun 2017, 18:00

Heber13 wrote:
29 Jun 2017, 10:53
SilentDawning wrote:
28 Jun 2017, 06:53
why is it worth 10% of your income for life?
Santa isn't real, but somebody still has to pay for the cost of setting up the display in the mall for the kids. Donating to it is for a good cause, still, even without literal beliefs.
Good analogy. Sorry if I'm overly cynical...I think the church has enough to fund its operations, and has lots and lots of land to sell if they get in trouble (they own 5% of Florida)...and I find they are not there for me personally when I've needed them for non-financial reasons. I've seen how they can be a bit tight-fisted with welfare funds when people have needed it...too....so it doesn't seem worth it to me right now.

Hopefully that will change as I do...
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"Stage 5 is where you no longer believe the gospel as its literally or traditionally taught. Nonetheless, you find your own way to be active and at peace within it". -- SD

The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

My introduction: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1576

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Heber13
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Re: Help talking to a spouse

Post by Heber13 » 30 Jun 2017, 14:14

SilentDawning wrote:
29 Jun 2017, 18:00
I've seen how they can be a bit tight-fisted with welfare funds when people have needed it...too
I agree...I have seen sometimes the leaders are protecting the coffers as sacred money they can't spend...and then forget why the coffers are there.

I like prudence and careful stewardship and how serious they take the oversight of the money.

I would rather the church be so rich and solid financially that the building expenses are taken care of and we can meet in churches and temples...and there is enough surplus they can get into the business of helping people. Funds for hospitals, schools, mental health clinics, employment ... things that really help the communities.

I want them to have more money than just operational funds...I want funds to solve problems in our lives. That can only happen if I trust the organization to use funds wisely. Trust is important. I understand why many people don't have it for the church, and tithing is an issue. I get that.

But something tells me the church does more good because of funds they have than I know about. I have never once felt they line their own pockets and live off the wealth. The church leaders are very serious about trying to do what is right with sacred funds. I don't always agree. Trust isn't always there. But...I do trust they try and that they do more than they publish.

With a son on a mission in a foreign country have unique experiences that will benefit the rest of his life...I see many blessings that come from the church that are only possible because of the financial position it is in. Those blessings are literal, regardless of stories of how the book of mormon came about. I don't need certainty in all things in order to see what is certainly working for my family now.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

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SilentDawning
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Re: Help talking to a spouse

Post by SilentDawning » 01 Jul 2017, 17:18

Heber13 wrote:
30 Jun 2017, 14:14
SilentDawning wrote:
29 Jun 2017, 18:00
I've seen how they can be a bit tight-fisted with welfare funds when people have needed it...too
I agree...I have seen sometimes the leaders are protecting the coffers as sacred money they can't spend...and then forget why the coffers are there.

I like prudence and careful stewardship and how serious they take the oversight of the money...
I would rather the church be so rich and solid financially that the building expenses are taken care of and we can meet in churches and temples...and there is enough surplus they can get into the business of helping people. Funds for hospitals, schools, mental health clinics, employment ... things that really help the communities.

I want them to have more money than just operational funds...I want funds to solve problems in our lives. That can only happen if I trust the organization to use funds wisely. Trust is important. I understand why many people don't have it for the church, and tithing is an issue. I get that.
Good. I can quote experiences where I wanted to go to LDS Social eErvices to help me cope with how I was feeling toward leaders who were not behaving well. And the impact the church experience had on my mental health -- but LDS Social SErvices were too busy to see me. Not enough workers on staff. And of course, I have other stories I won't go into again (I wore those out long ago).

There are times I feel we have a "one way flow" when it comes to effort and money in the church, and it makes tithing hard to swallow...particularly after my experiences.

I guess that is one reason I don't feel badly about my current light contributions to the church -- even though I have a child at BYU and who is benefiting from what I assume is subsidized tuition. Even then, I paid for my entire education except for $1500 of my first year, which my parents paid. And I expect the same from my own children.

Ideally, yes, we give with the expectation that we receive nothing in return. And for years, that was fine. But when there were legitimate needs (non-financial) and they didn't step up. And when I'd see them being tight fisted on so many issues, it has made it hard for me to think that way anymore.

I could argue that my personal funds are sacred. I have an obligation to a disabled child and need a reserve for them. And past experiences have made it very hard for me to pay tithing with willingness as I did in the past.

Anyway, I do believe the leaders in general want to be responsible with church funds, and generosity is a double edges sword. If they appear to liberal with funds and seem to be frittering them away, the people making major sacrifices to pay tithing could be disilliusioned. But if they are too tight fisted as well, it can easily make the faithful cynical....

it's a tough balance. Too bad my life experiences have put me on the disillusioned side of the median.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"Stage 5 is where you no longer believe the gospel as its literally or traditionally taught. Nonetheless, you find your own way to be active and at peace within it". -- SD

The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

My introduction: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1576

Awakening
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Re: Help talking to a spouse

Post by Awakening » 08 Jul 2017, 22:21

Oh boy, this is tough! I can relate to all you are saying because I was in your wife's situation a few years ago. Her sobbing and tears are out of loss and fear. Here once secure thoughts of eternal family is now being shattered in her mind. She doesn't want to talk about it because it is so painful to face the reality. I was devastated. I couldn't understand why my husband was doing this either. I know now how much you are hurting as well. If I could change anything about that time in my life, it would be to pause thinking about my own pain and loss and look at may husband's feelings of loss as well. The Santa Claus analogy is one I used when explaining this to my sis in law. I am so grateful that my husband was patient with me even though I was not always kind to him but again, it's all about that fear factor. You are not doing this to your wife. The church let you down. You are hurt too! The hard part about this transitioning phase is finding a place where you can both come together again. It takes time and gentle, gentle persistence. I know some people stop talking about it and never seem to arrive at a place where they once again feel lovingly safe together. I don't believe that is a healthy relationship although I do think it takes time to process together. Over time, I came to see that my husband was the same man I married. His love for me was genuine and strong. I cried many hours going through all of this. I hope it gives you hope to know that people really do get through this and relationships can be even more beautiful and bonded than ever before as is in our case. It did take time (several years) God bless!

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