Pres. Monson reduction in work

Public forum for those seeking support for their experience in the LDS Church.
User avatar
SamBee
Posts: 4249
Joined: 14 Mar 2010, 04:55

Re: Pres. Monson reduction in work

Post by SamBee » 24 May 2017, 14:55

SilentDawning wrote:
24 May 2017, 05:37
I don't agree with our approach to succession in the presidency. These guys get really really old and unable to function, yet we saddle them with all the responsibilities of running a company with 16 million employees (I'm being tongue in cheek there) right until they pass away. I wish there was a way of letting them leave the presidency voluntarily so THEN, the succession in the presidency can take over to determine who is next.

It's also not fair to the membership to have a prophet at the helm who purportedly speaks for God, and never get to see him in conference, or when he does speak, to see him stammering and stumbling and needing people to prop him up on satellite television. It's sad....
There is a simple pragmatic reason for it - it stops infighting, quarrels and schisms within the leadership to a large degree. I think the church receieved a body blow when Joseph Smith died and numerous claimants came forward... also by doing it this way, the onus is partly put onto God/natural causes rather than human decision.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

Curt Sunshine
Site Admin
Posts: 15328
Joined: 21 Oct 2008, 20:24

Re: Pres. Monson reduction in work

Post by Curt Sunshine » 24 May 2017, 18:39

I would have no problem if Pres. Eyring amd Pres. Uchtdorf were the primary administrators for long enough that some of the other top apostle passed away before Pres. Monsoon. I would like that a lot.

I actually like Elder Oaks as a future President, but some of the others . . . not so much.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

User avatar
SilentDawning
Posts: 6316
Joined: 09 May 2010, 19:55

Re: Pres. Monson reduction in work

Post by SilentDawning » 25 May 2017, 07:46

Ray DeGraw wrote:
24 May 2017, 18:39
I would have no problem if Pres. Eyring amd Pres. Uchtdorf were the primary administrators for long enough that some of the other top apostle passed away before Pres. Monsoon. I would like that a lot.

I actually like Elder Oaks as a future President, but some of the others . . . not so much.

Interesting thought in bold there Ray. I hadn't thought of that. Keep the less desireable GA's out of the prophet chair while Eyring and Uchdorft captain the ship.

As far as Oaks goes, he's a mixed bag. I quote some of his ideas on exceptions for individuals to gospel commandments, but then he comes out with stuff like "we need 3rd and 4th generation Mormons to be leaders", or "you can have inspiration all you want but it can't conflict with the priesthood line". Stuff like that. He even did a thing on divorce that made it sound like it's all your fault if you marry the wrong person and talks against it. I think divorce is a good idea for some people. Anyway, can't complain about what we can't control. I hope President Monson is able to get some rest now.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"Stage 5 is where you no longer believe the gospel as its literally or traditionally taught. Nonetheless, you find your own way to be active and at peace within it". -- SD

The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

My introduction: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1576

User avatar
nibbler
Posts: 3136
Joined: 14 Nov 2013, 07:34
Location: Ten miles west of the exact centre of the universe

Re: Pres. Monson reduction in work

Post by nibbler » 25 May 2017, 08:36

My only worry with Elder Oaks is that we'll become the Church of Religious Freedom of Latter-day Saints.
“We understand how dangerous a mask can be. We all become what we pretend to be.”
― Patrick Rothfuss


“No man, for any considerable period, can wear one face to himself and another to the multitude, without finally getting bewildered as to which may be the true.”
― Nathaniel Hawthorne

User avatar
DarkJedi
Posts: 5285
Joined: 24 Aug 2013, 20:53

Re: Pres. Monson reduction in work

Post by DarkJedi » 25 May 2017, 09:05

I'm OK with Oaks because I like much of what he says in his Conference talks. He tends to focus on doctrine (or at least his view of what is doctrine) and uses many scriptural references without really reading stuff into them that's not really there. He could smile more and try to be less boring though.

BUT the GC Oaks and the Oaks who speaks outside GC are different. I have met the guy twice, the first time as a missionary when he was very new. He also did a stake conference here once. More recently he was the main speaker at our regional broadcast multi stake conference. His talk there wasn't horrible (and he didn't mention religious freedom), but he did say a couple things he probably wouldn't have said in GC and that I don't particularly care for. He called earrings and tattoos graffiti on the body (way to win over those millennials!). The other thing he said is just a pet peeve of mine, but I don't think I've heard him say anything like it in GC before.

That said, in the FP he won't be doing stake conferences, etc., and is better than the alternative IMO.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

User avatar
mom3
Posts: 3100
Joined: 02 Apr 2011, 14:11

Re: Pres. Monson reduction in work

Post by mom3 » 25 May 2017, 09:48

SD - Ray's example comes straight from the President Hinckley life book. And it worked well. In a way it gave us a President for over three decades.

I see it the same way Ray does, not just for keeping Nelson and others off the chair, but it also gives Uchtdorf and Eyring (but Uchtdorf most especially) more time as a leader. Uchtdorf's placement holds weight in GC as well as in private meetings. His present calling ranks him above the other senior GA's. That is a plus we probably don't give enough credit to. Once President Monson passes there is no guarantee Uchtdorf or Eyring would retain their spots.

I know people here assume that because Monson and Hinckley were connected as councilors then President and Councilors that is how it works, but historically councilors have come from various places. Some GA's, some 70's, and so on. I don't see Nelson selecting Uchtdorf.

Having Monson hang on is a gift to everyone. Even if it's just six more months.
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

User avatar
DarkJedi
Posts: 5285
Joined: 24 Aug 2013, 20:53

Re: Pres. Monson reduction in work

Post by DarkJedi » 25 May 2017, 11:02

I agree with you Mom. Eyring and Uchtdorf still constitute the Council of the First Presidency who do work together independent of the Council of the Quorum of the Twelve. They meet separately, then together.

I disagree that Nelson won't choose Uchtdorf. We do love some tradition, and recent tradition holds that he will retain the counselors if that time comes. In the more distant past outsiders could be and were chosen as counselors. The closest we have come to anything like that is actually when Nelson and Oaks were called as apostles and they were not already GAs. One major change since that time is that we have many more GAs (Seventies) than we had then.

The last non-Apostle FPC we had was Thorpe B. Isaacson, who was an Assistant to the Twelve at the time (a since abolished office whose duties are now filled by the Seventy). Thorpe had also been a counselor in the Presiding Bishopric. He was an additional counselor (not first or second) to McKay at the time when he had five counselors. Issacson was called in October 1965 and had a stroke in February 1966, rendering him unable perform his duties and necessitating the call of Alvin R. Dyer. When McKay died in 1970, Issacson returned to his position as Assistant to the Twelve and died that same year.

Joseph Fielding Smith, also a counselor to McKay, became president on McKay's death and he retained N. Eldon Tanner and added Harold B. Lee, but did not retain Hugh B. Brown who was apparently able bodied. That's the last time a new president did not retain an able counselor, and it was likely because Brown did not agree with the much more conservative Smith on a few things, and apparently Brown actually questioned whether Smith was fit to hold the office. Brown returned to the Q12. Marion G. Romney was not retained by Ezra Taft Benson, but Romney was incapacitated at the time. Prior to Fielding Smith not retaining Brown, the last time a counselor was not retained was when Joseph F. Smith did not retain Rudger Clawson, who had served only 5 days under Lorenzo Snow and had not been set apart. Clawson returned to the Q12 and later served as president of the quorum. John Taylor did not retain either first or second counselors to Brigham Young, but Young also had additional counselors, including George Q. Cannon and Joseph F. Smith who became first and second counselors respectively. Joseph F. also served as counselor to Wilford Woodruff and Lorenzo Snow.

It should also be noted that Dyer was an apostle but was never a member of the Q12 and returned to his duties as an Assistant to the Twelve (and subsequently the FQot70) after McKay's death. Dyer was also a perpetrator of the idea Blacks could not hold the priesthood because they are descendants of Cain (now disavowed by the church). Smith had two able counselors and there was not a need at that time for additional counselors as McKay had had, so Dyer was released as additional counselor.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

User avatar
Heber13
Posts: 6489
Joined: 22 Apr 2009, 16:37
Location: In the Middle

Re: Pres. Monson reduction in work

Post by Heber13 » 25 May 2017, 11:47

DarkJedi wrote:
24 May 2017, 03:54
In the past when we had incapacitated presidents (the most recent more than 20 years ago) the church continued to run and the membership saw no difference except for speaking by the FP. We sometimes use the term Q15 here, and in reality that's an appropriate term for how it works - the church is not ruled by a dictator who speaks to God on his own, rather it is ruled by committee and any revelation is received collectively.
I agree with this DJ, and like the stability we now have in leadership succession. It seems to be working alright.
SamBee wrote:
24 May 2017, 14:55
There is a simple pragmatic reason for it - it stops infighting, quarrels and schisms within the leadership to a large degree.
I agree. That is one of the positives, since we know how human nature works, it is a decent approach.

I get the impression God is kind of saying..."It's OK. I can work with anyone that is pure in heart, despite any weaknesses." Even Moses needed some help being propped up when strength was waning.

As we learn in the book of Omni...some prophets dutifully pass on the work even if they are not in a position to add much or change much. They are still prophets.

TSM has added much over the years...even if now he isn't able to, he is still a prophet. The work goes on. I don't sense a change despite his individual circumstance. The church rolls on. I am glad there isn't drama, fanfare, or panic. Next person steps up, and on we go. God can work with anyone.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

NightSG
Posts: 262
Joined: 09 Feb 2015, 09:35

Re: Pres. Monson reduction in work

Post by NightSG » 25 May 2017, 13:41

SilentDawning wrote:
24 May 2017, 05:37
I wish there was a way of letting them leave the presidency voluntarily so THEN, the succession in the presidency can take over to determine who is next.
Well, what would happen if a prophet did say he wanted to step down? Is he the only LDS without agency to decline to continue in a calling?

For that matter, what would happen if he simply opposed his own sustaining vote at Conference? Or answered no to the "do you sustain..." question at his next TR interview?

User avatar
mom3
Posts: 3100
Joined: 02 Apr 2011, 14:11

Re: Pres. Monson reduction in work

Post by mom3 » 25 May 2017, 13:58

As a small side note - I miss President Hinckley, President Monson, and President Faust. Their friendship oozed into their teamship. I think it was good for the overall church.

I like the present team, I just miss the one before them, too.

We can return to the OP.
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users