You should have known better!

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DBMormon
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You should have known better!

Post by DBMormon » 14 Nov 2014, 21:49

You should have known better!

http://www.wheatandtares.org/15431/sham ... t-knowing/
So while I agree, we as LDS should know more about our faith’s history, there is more than enough blame to go around from the top on down.

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SilentDawning
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Re: You should have known better!

Post by SilentDawning » 14 Nov 2014, 22:01

Sorry, but Dan Peterson's argument is BS. Before the Internet, all I had was Truth Restored, and anything I read in lesson/institute manuals. If you wanted to go deeper, you had to visit a public library -- and half the time there wasn't anything there on church history. And of course, the number of times were told told not to read anything that doesn't nourish faith, I don't think I ever went beyond correlated church materials.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

A man asked Jesus "do all roads lead to you?" Jesus responds,”most roads don’t lead anywhere, but I will travel any road to find you.” Adapted from The Shack, William Young

Ann
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Re: You should have known better!

Post by Ann » 15 Nov 2014, 00:09

The picture and sarcastic caption on Peterson's Patheos post are worth a thousand words. Obnoxious.
"Preachers err by trying to talk people into belief; better they reveal the radiance of their own discovery." - Joseph Campbell

"The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes, but in having new eyes." - Marcel Proust

"Therefore they said unto him, How were thine eyes opened? He answered and said unto them, A man that is called Jesus made clay, and anointed my eyes...." - John 9:10-11

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DarkJedi
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Re: You should have known better!

Post by DarkJedi » 15 Nov 2014, 05:34

I certainly agree with you DBMormon. While I, too, was aware of the many controversial areas of church teachings and history, what I knew mostly did not come from manuals and actual church teachings, but from looking at materials outside the church and from conversations with knowledgeable members. The conversations with knowledgeable members were rare and the information was generally apologetic, not necessarily accurate, and generally smacked of folklore. Some scant information, perhaps like the general idea that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy, was clearly available in manuals and if your teacher decided to make that part of the lesson you could learn about it - without things like polyandry, marrying other men's wives, and marrying 14-year-olds. Real, true information was available only to the select few who were permitted into the locked archives, and some of those who were bold enough to publish or teach some of that information that they had come across were excommunicated as heretics and apostates.

Let me propose one not uncommon scenario to you: A newly baptized sister is called to teach Primary soon after baptism (20 years ago there were not rules about attending SS class like there are now, but no difference, the stuff isn't in that manual). The idea of her teaching Primary is that she can learn the basics of the gospel while teaching the young children - makes perfect sense. Turns out she's really good at it and really likes it. She spends most of her 20 years in Primary as a teacher and eventually a leader, spending little time in adult classes and is a model member of the church. She holds a temple recommend, bears her testimony a few times a year, attends and helps out with activities, etc. She followed the warnings not to use outside materials in her lessons, and repeated that warning to teachers when she became a leader. Where, exactly, was she supposed to be exposed to information outside the Primary materials?

The assertion that people should have known actually tees me off. :!: :thumbdown: The only way for the general go-with-the-flow member to know is if it is taught to them. I believe that is one of the purposes of the essays, yet even then so many are totally unaware of them and one has to know where to look to find them on the church site. "You should have known" is insulting BS.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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LookingHard
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Re: You should have known better!

Post by LookingHard » 15 Nov 2014, 06:06

I live outside the Mormon corridor and the only time I heard anything was on my mission from other missionaries. They also told me that I couldn't swim because the devil had power over water (they thought I was being sarcastic when I asked, "can I drink it then since only a single mouthful could drown me?") Where was I supposed to hear about it? I was told over and over, "don't read stuff outside of what comes from the church or deseret book." I remember in conference being told not to go look elsewhere (now I know they were talking about sunstone) as all the info you need is right here at church.

The more devout = the more likely not to know.

But I did know he had more than one wife, but none of the details. And the details are disturbing, but I am more upset from how it was intentionally kept from me and insinuated that all of it was a bunch of lies by anti-Mormons.

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DarkJedi
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Re: You should have known better!

Post by DarkJedi » 15 Nov 2014, 07:47

LookingHard wrote: I am more upset from how it was intentionally kept from me and insinuated that all of it was a bunch of lies by anti-Mormons.
Agreed. I think that is a major part of most people's faith crisis - the feeling that they have been deceived or betrayed.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

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SilentDawning
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Re: You should have known better!

Post by SilentDawning » 15 Nov 2014, 10:51

Yes -- anything negative is interpreted as the influence of Satan. I used to get that all the time. It sounds almost cult-like. Notice I said, almost.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

A man asked Jesus "do all roads lead to you?" Jesus responds,”most roads don’t lead anywhere, but I will travel any road to find you.” Adapted from The Shack, William Young

Curt Sunshine
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Re: You should have known better!

Post by Curt Sunshine » 15 Nov 2014, 10:53

I never read what Brother Peterson writes. That's my coping mechanism when it come to him. :P

Excellent post, Bill.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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SunbeltRed
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Re: You should have known better!

Post by SunbeltRed » 15 Nov 2014, 12:38

Bill,

Appreciate the article. My wife and I were having this same discussion last night. I was actively discouraged to read anything outside the correlated materials (anything outside those materials was deemed anti-Mormon). Now many of those authors who my parents and leaders would have called anti-Mormon are now being quoted in the essays. That is problematic for me and I believe for others.

Thanks for sharing.

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Cadence
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Re: You should have known better!

Post by Cadence » 15 Nov 2014, 12:45

OK so we all made mistakes in the past, lets not focus on the blame game. The problem is now we know better. The leaders should know better. What are we going to do about it moving forward? Are we going to face the issues head on and let the chips fall? Or maybe we are going to try and weasel around and act like it was not big deal Joseph was manipulating women. Point is I am not so frustrated about the past because there is nothing I can do about that. The future however needs to be addressed, and how is the church going to deal with that?
Last edited by Cadence on 19 Nov 2014, 19:43, edited 1 time in total.
Faith, as well intentioned as it may be, must be built on facts, not fiction--faith in fiction is a damnable false hope. Thomas A. Edison

“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.” Neil deGrasse Tyson

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