John Dehlin is leaving the building

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Sheldon
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Joined: 14 Aug 2013, 13:44

John Dehlin is leaving the building

Post by Sheldon » 01 May 2014, 14:05

It looks like John Dehlin is not going to “Stay LDS”. You can read about it in his statement on Mormon Stories here
A few of the more telling quotes:
….I no longer believe many of the fundamental LDS church truth claims (e.g., anthropomorphic God, “one true church with exclusive authority,” that the current LDS church prophet receives privileged communications from God, that The Book of Mormon and The Book of Abraham are translations, polygamy, racist teachings in the Book of Mormon, that ordinances are required for salvation, proxy work for the dead).
I am also troubled by their historical and current approaches to faith/doubt, sexuality, the pursuit of vast commercial interests along with financial non-disclosure, the coercion/shaming of members through the withholding of temple and priesthood privileges, and the current culture of leader worship within the LDS church.
So, will John be forced out, or will they let him stay on his own terms?

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DarkJedi
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Joined: 24 Aug 2013, 20:53

Re: John Dehlin is leaving the building

Post by DarkJedi » 01 May 2014, 14:15

I take it this is a new statement? Frankly, I agree with much of it and could have written it myself - and I'm on the way in. I don't see it as an indication he's on the way out, but maybe I'm missing something.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

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Sheldon
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Re: John Dehlin is leaving the building

Post by Sheldon » 01 May 2014, 15:54

I believe it was posted today or yesterday. The difference between you (DarkJedi) and John (besides you being Luke’s father) is that you are mostly in the closet, while John is blasting his beliefs for the whole world to see. Try giving a talk as in a ward (in capacity of your new calling!) and state your non testimony of the below like John did, and see how long you last! John has a much bigger pulpit, which requires a much bigger hammer to quash.
Good morning. To set the record straight, I do not believe:
1. In an anthropomorphic God
2. The LDS church is the one true church with exclusive authority
3. that the current LDS church prophet receives privileged communications from God,
4. that The Book of Mormon and The Book of Abraham are translations,
5. That Polygamy was ever required by God,
6. In the racist teachings in the Book of Mormon,
7. that ordinances are required for salvation,
8. proxy work for the dead

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turinturambar
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Joined: 29 Mar 2012, 16:03

Re: John Dehlin is leaving the building

Post by turinturambar » 01 May 2014, 16:41

John is finishing his doctorate and moving on to the next phase in his life. Maybe it's a good time to move on in other ways. He could leave Cache Valley, which might make a big difference if he decides to live and attend church somewhere less...intense.

Either way, I am grateful for Mormon Stories, and I am hopeful that the results of his PhD research will lead to some policy changes re LGBT issues and the church.
And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 13:2‎)‎

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cwald
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Post by cwald » 01 May 2014, 18:45

Interesting.

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  Jesus gave us the gospel, but Satan invented church. It takes serious evil to formalize faith into something tedious and then pile guilt on anyone who doesn't participate enthusiastically. - Robert Kirby

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SilentDawning
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Joined: 09 May 2010, 19:55

Re: John Dehlin is leaving the building

Post by SilentDawning » 01 May 2014, 19:41

He's really boxed himself into a corner if he wants to come back again. I always think of that eventuality, and you'll never find me publicly admitting my own concerns and biases. Mine aren't the same as John's, but I sure hope he's comfortable with the implications of what he wrote for all to see -- especially since he's one of the most public figures on the bloggernacle.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

A man asked Jesus "do all roads lead to you?" Jesus responds,”most roads don’t lead anywhere, but I will travel any road to find you.” Adapted from The Shack, William Young

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silentstruggle
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Joined: 26 Jul 2009, 07:25

Re: John Dehlin is leaving the building

Post by silentstruggle » 01 May 2014, 19:44

Wow. He has really stated most of my feelings most eloquently.

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mom3
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Joined: 02 Apr 2011, 14:11

Re: John Dehlin is leaving the building

Post by mom3 » 01 May 2014, 20:50

John and I don't always see eye to eye on many things. I do appreciate many of his podcasts, and the introduction of podcasts to the LDS community. I love some of the break off groups that he has helped create. However, I find him overly dramatic and rather volatile. He has wide swinging emotional pendulum that isn't bad, but it makes any great announcement from him uncertain.

I almost see his new statement as an ante for the church. Bit like a dare. If John were to leave or the church to push him out it could be explosive - a bit like Jenga. John can't afford that, not if he intends to make a successful practice, he can't burn a bridge or have it be burned for him. I think this is just the pendulum swinging out - with hope of maybe drawing some attention to something he is doing. John never does anything quietly. The fact that he felt the need to announce this new personal write up on his facebook, and attribute it to others, "others have asked me" or "I have been asked", makes me think there is another agenda.

If he goes - I hope he finds peace. I don't him personally but he seems troubled to me.
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

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SamBee
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Re: John Dehlin is leaving the building

Post by SamBee » 02 May 2014, 02:40

If he wants to go, go. I'm tired of hearing about it every six months.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

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DarkJedi
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Joined: 24 Aug 2013, 20:53

Re: John Dehlin is leaving the building

Post by DarkJedi » 02 May 2014, 04:14

Sheldon wrote:I believe it was posted today or yesterday. The difference between you (DarkJedi) and John (besides you being Luke’s father) is that you are mostly in the closet, while John is blasting his beliefs for the whole world to see. Try giving a talk as in a ward (in capacity of your new calling!) and state your non testimony of the below like John did, and see how long you last! John has a much bigger pulpit, which requires a much bigger hammer to quash.
Good morning. To set the record straight, I do not believe:
1. In an anthropomorphic God
2. The LDS church is the one true church with exclusive authority
3. that the current LDS church prophet receives privileged communications from God,
4. that The Book of Mormon and The Book of Abraham are translations,
5. That Polygamy was ever required by God,
6. In the racist teachings in the Book of Mormon,
7. that ordinances are required for salvation,
8. proxy work for the dead
You are right Sheldon, John is much more public than I am, apparently by design, and I certainly would not state the above beliefs publicly even though I agree with them for the most part. And I agree that if I did I would likely be sanctioned in some way (although that may be little more than being released). I certainly think there was a time in the not so distant past when John would likely have been excommunicated for publishing a statement like that. I also see a maturing church where that likelihood is not great today.

Yes, I am Luke's father (different Luke, but he is a Jedi like his father before him), but I am not a Sith. In the context of this board, the dark part relates to my doubts - once one starts down the dark path "forever it will dominate your destiny" (Yoda). That is, I cannot return to my prior beliefs - I am a Mormon but I know the dark side and that cannot be changed.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

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