A Suicide

Public forum for those seeking support for their experience in the LDS Church.
Curt Sunshine
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Re: A Suicide

Post by Curt Sunshine » 22 Aug 2014, 18:32

Frankly, RDS, you are overthinking the statement. The Church can't say it's fine and dandy to take a life, even one's own life, but it can and does say that suicide is not murder and can be caused by temporary or permanent impaired accountability. Also, I really like the fact that the statement doesn't limit that only to diagnosed mental disabilities.

Finally, fwiw, I've never heard in my lifetime in the Church (and raised in a highly conservative, orthodox area) that suicide is murder - and I am not a youngster.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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RagDollSallyUT
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Re: A Suicide

Post by RagDollSallyUT » 22 Aug 2014, 19:13

You are right, It may be that I am over thinking things. That's why I am so glad to be able to come here and get feedback from all of you and am endlessly impressed about the great brains here and the honest feedback I get. I am glad it's a safe place that I don't have to worry I will just be told to repent from my heretical thoughts.

However, it was one of those things that may not have been actually said by the prophet and was not actually doctrine, but as a military brat I was raised in several different sub cultures in mormonism and it was definitely perpetuated anyway. And there is this from that article:

"President George Q. Cannon of the First Presidency made a clear statement about the seriousness of suicide when he said: 'Man did not create himself. He did not furnish his spirit with a human dwelling place. It is God who created man, both body and spirit. Man has no right, therefore, to destroy that which he had no agency in creating. They who do so are guilty of murder, self-murder it is true; but they are no more justified in killing themselves than they are in killing others.' "

And I agree totally- the church cannot ever say suicide is OK. I wouldn't ever tell anyone to do it, ever. But I don't think it's right to judge those who have or think in any way that they will be horribly punished. IMO they were probably punished to such an extent here that they likely already paid for the sin before they even did it. IDK. I guess I just err on the side of non judgement and empathy. Glad that the church is starting to take the same tone but as I said I am a little burnt on the "that's not what I said- that's not what I meant. What you took to be real wasn't real because you misunderstood me." Live with a BPD a few years and see how long before you cringe every time you hear those words! And yes, maybe I am cynical- trying to explore that one still.
Attacked by Christmas Toys? That's strange. That's the second complaint we've had!-Nightmare Before Christmas
We're gonna need a bigger boat.-Jaws
If we are to be saved in an ark, as Noah and his family were, it will be because we build it.-Brigham Young

Minyan Man
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Re: A Suicide

Post by Minyan Man » 22 Aug 2014, 21:03

It seems that there has been an increase in the number of suicides lately.
I know personally at least (3) people in the last 4 months who have made successful attempts at suicide.
It has been devastating for the families they've left behind.
I can't imagine being in that situation where you would contemplate doing that.
That is why I believe it is mental break down & we are not in a position to judge.
What can you say to a surviving family member that would bring comfort?
Maybe just silence & a hug. Or a sympathetic ear.

Curt Sunshine
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Re: A Suicide

Post by Curt Sunshine » 22 Aug 2014, 21:09

I agree and simply will point out how old that quote is. On-going revelation is an important concept, even when it isn't viewed the way orthodoxy would define it.

Previous people did the best they could with their own understanding, just as we do now. Many aspects of our vision through dark glasses have improved, but we still see darkly in many ways. I try to remember that when viewing others, past and present - and when I am prone to judge myself.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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RagDollSallyUT
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Re: A Suicide

Post by RagDollSallyUT » 22 Aug 2014, 21:47

Ray DeGraw wrote:I agree and simply will point out how old that quote is. On-going revelation is an important concept, even when it isn't viewed the way orthodoxy would define it.

Previous people did the best they could with their own understanding, just as we do now. Many aspects of our vision through dark glasses have improved, but we still see darkly in many ways. I try to remember that when viewing others, past and present - and when I am prone to judge myself.
Yes you are right. And I am likely to be a little sensitive and have a knee jerk reaction from the circumstance I am in.
Attacked by Christmas Toys? That's strange. That's the second complaint we've had!-Nightmare Before Christmas
We're gonna need a bigger boat.-Jaws
If we are to be saved in an ark, as Noah and his family were, it will be because we build it.-Brigham Young

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RagDollSallyUT
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Re: A Suicide

Post by RagDollSallyUT » 22 Aug 2014, 23:36

Speaking of suicide, after the loss of my cousin my grandpa sent this and I found it comforting. I thought the woman who wrote it had some good points and I found it comforting:
http://eatthinkbemerry.com/2014/06/a-pe ... n-suicide/

I especially liked how she said:

"My family was watching a documentary on the 9/11 terrorist attacks and for the first time, I saw footage of someone jumping from the window of one of the twin towers. All at once, I understood what Jay’s bishop had meant. The person was not jumping from the building to die, but rather to escape the intense and consuming flames. Nobody would accuse that person of being selfish or of giving up on life."
Attacked by Christmas Toys? That's strange. That's the second complaint we've had!-Nightmare Before Christmas
We're gonna need a bigger boat.-Jaws
If we are to be saved in an ark, as Noah and his family were, it will be because we build it.-Brigham Young

Roadrunner
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Re: A Suicide

Post by Roadrunner » 23 Aug 2014, 07:08

At risk of going sideways on this topic, do any of you have links to talks, especially funeral talks for people committing suicide? Im going to speak at a ward members funeral who killed herself and im looking for input. I have searched on this forum but didnt have much luck using the search feature. I did find a couple of helpful talks on LDS.org, including the one linked by nibbler. Messages of hope, grace, mercy come to mind.

Very sad, diificult for those left behind, but this sister was obviously struggling with more than we knew. Zero judgement from anyone as far as I can tell, only love and support for the family.

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Re: A Suicide

Post by nibbler » 23 Aug 2014, 10:45

I edited down my original post to this thread, I wish I remember some of the stuff I had said. Anyway:
George Q. Cannon wrote:Man did not create himself. He did not furnish his spirit with a human dwelling place. It is God who created man, both body and spirit. Man has no right, therefore, to destroy that which he had no agency in creating. They who do so are guilty of murder, self-murder it is true; but they are no more justified in killing themselves than they are in killing others.
I've heard very similar things from many (if not most) religious denominations. I've even heard it taken one step further, that suicide guarantees you a spot in hell. Here's the thing... people say this sort of thing as a tactic to instill obedience through fear. They really, really, really, really don't want someone to commit suicide so they come up with these sorts of ideas to scare people off even entertaining the thought of suicide. They might not even know that's the real reason behind those sorts of teachings but that's how I see it, boiling down to a last ditch effort to possibly scaring people off committing suicide.

Here's the thing. People commit suicide. Those teachings meant to scare a person away from suicide are still lingering out there and now only serve to destroy a family's hope. The teaching intended to scare people away from suicide now convinces loved ones that their family member committed murder, and in so doing are guaranteed a spot in hell.

I think people are finally starting to come around in seeing some of the bitter fruits behind using that fear tactic. This is why fear can never work to motivate people to obey. I've had suicides (plural) in my family and I've been in situations where I tried to comfort a family member that had deep seated beliefs in equating suicide with a one way ticket to hell. These beliefs certainly didn't come from the LDS church, the teachings have been around for a long, long time.

Also, those types of phrases and teachings really eat at the person that contemplates suicide. If they have those beliefs and they still make an attempt at their life? They've already been to hell, I promise you that.

Suicide is complicated, like everything. I really do believe that some people have a genetic predisposition towards being suicidal. Look at Ernest Hemingway's family. Look at mine, I even struggled with depression. I believe church0333 has had firsthand experience with family suicides as well.

I hate to draw attention to this but one thing I've learned in the last decade or so (I was naïve), and Robin Williams' suicide just underscores this... people that struggle with depression are never safe. I had a preconceived notion that suicide, more often than not, claims the young. That if I could somehow survive my youth, if I can help my children survive their youth, if other family members are now older, that perhaps we'll all finally be free of this. Perhaps we've won. No. No. No. People that struggle with depression and suicidal thoughts are never safe. The battle is never over.

I ran across a post from church0333 and although I don't fully understand my feelings towards suicide I can say that it certainly is "another means of causing death and death will come to us all."

I hope I'm brave enough to leave this post alone this time. Unfortunately this touches on a raw nerve with me.

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RagDollSallyUT
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Re: A Suicide

Post by RagDollSallyUT » 23 Aug 2014, 10:59

Amen nibbler. You said exactly what I was thinking and feeling but could not articulate. Thank you.
Attacked by Christmas Toys? That's strange. That's the second complaint we've had!-Nightmare Before Christmas
We're gonna need a bigger boat.-Jaws
If we are to be saved in an ark, as Noah and his family were, it will be because we build it.-Brigham Young

Minyan Man
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Re: A Suicide

Post by Minyan Man » 23 Aug 2014, 14:43

George Q. Cannon wrote:Man did not create himself. He did not furnish his spirit with a human dwelling place. It is God who created man, both body and spirit. Man has no right, therefore, to destroy that which he had no agency in creating. They who do so are guilty of murder, self-murder it is true; but they are no more justified in killing themselves than they are in killing others.
Using the same logic, shouldn't the Church be against all wars?
Shouldn't the Church be against capital punishment?

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