Illegal or not?

Public forum for those seeking support for their experience in the LDS Church.
angel333
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Joined: 12 Nov 2013, 04:06

Illegal or not?

Post by angel333 » 28 Jan 2014, 03:37

So many things are not making sense to me anymore but this latest experience is keeping me up at night. We live in area where we have had tons of bad weather and snow. This past sunday we were put on a level 3 red alert which means you can get a ticket and no one is allowed on the road. Our Bishop gets on our ward facebook and says "The roads are FINE we will be having all of our meetings" This bothered me so much that I can't wrap my head around why he broke the law. I went on the ward facebook and voiced my concerns and you wouldn't believe the backlash I got.Some comments were"I raised my hand to sustain the Bishop and we should follow him" "It depends on what the holy ghost tells you""I drove by a policman and waved.No ticket" "Well its a gray area" What in the world?? It was breaking the law!!! Am I wrong? I quoted the 12th article of faith and read D and C 121 and there were all kinds of other reasons that I was wrong. I cant stomach going to church with these people that will break the law and then go to church and preach about how we obey the law of the land.What am I missing here? By the way.We stayed home Sunday.Can't afford a ticket.

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DarkJedi
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Re: Illegal or not?

Post by DarkJedi » 28 Jan 2014, 08:45

We have "state of emergency" around here when weather causes it to be unsafe to travel and the sheriff likewise issues a "no unnecessary travel" and sometimes "no travel" order. Usually people don't heed these warnings and the deputies and troopers are so busy with other things (sometimes the accidents caused by the travelers) that tickets are rare. However, we believe that the sheriff knows what he's talking about and always follow the order. Church in not necessary travel. While I don't know of a definition of unnecessary travel I've always considered it to be medical emergency, nurses and doctors needing to get to work, and the like. When these orders are issued most businesses close or don't open. I don't ever recall an instance where our local leaders have violated these orders, and they usually make a fairly concerted effort (home teachers call, neighbors call, YM/YW leaders call, etc.) to tell people not to come to whatever activity or Sunday meetings.

So I agree with you Angel333, even if others did choose not to follow the order, we would follow it regardless of what the bishop said (although ours has always agreed with our view). I do believe the church believes in following the law as stated in the AofF. Your description of the reaction goes back to this idea of infallibility that some people have about local leaders. It's just not so. But, there's nothing you can do about it except vent and stew, and I'm sorry for that.

When we have our big "nor'easter" type storms here, schools usually close because it is believed the roads are unsafe for students and buses. Back in the 80s there was a kind of renegade superintendent who decided that education that day was more important - even though snow days are made up. One of their buses slid off the road and down an embankment killing several students and injuring several more. That particular district now closes at the drop of a hat (a few flakes of snow), and others readily close because of that incident. It would be just as sad if something similar happened because someone was following their bishop's idea that roads are safe despite what our government leaders say.
Last edited by DarkJedi on 29 Jan 2014, 07:50, edited 1 time in total.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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On Own Now
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Re: Illegal or not?

Post by On Own Now » 28 Jan 2014, 09:47

angel333,

Well, something like that all depends on personal priorities. If I were planning to go to a friend's house for the Super Bowl this Sunday, and there was a bad storm and the city/county said stay home unless it is absolutely necessary, even stating that they'd ticket people out and about, I would get in my SUV and drive to the party. Illegal? I wouldn't even think of it in those terms. It's important to me, so, I'm going.
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Roy
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Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: Illegal or not?

Post by Roy » 28 Jan 2014, 09:56

angel333 wrote:Our Bishop gets on our ward facebook and says "The roads are FINE we will be having all of our meetings"
I look at this and imagine that it is the Bishop's prerogative to hold or cancel meetings. I do wish that he didn't say that the roads are fine - I do not think it should be up to him to declare road conditions. I wish that he had said that the ward will be holding all the regular meetings. We understand if many of you can't make it. We urge all that decide to come join us to exercise care and caution in your travels.

OTOH, openly disagreeing about a bishop's decision for the ward will tend to get many Mormons defensive. I imagine that some sort of response that said that you don't feel comfortable traveling with your family this Sunday but you look forward to seeing everyone next Sunday - might work without stirring the hornets’ nest so bad.

I'm not disagreeing with you at all. I believe that Bishops might make no end of stupid decisions. I just don't think that much progress is made when people are in siege mentality. (I’m also non-confrontational by nature)
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

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nibbler
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Re: Illegal or not?

Post by nibbler » 28 Jan 2014, 19:28

Wow. I don't know that I could identify with the must. go. to. church. every. Sunday. at. all. costs. mentality. Safety first. Of course I live in an area where when it snows the roads convert into a sheet of ice. Even an inch of snow on the roads spells trouble. The church doesn't play with that in this area, snow or pending snow - - everyone knows that the church is going to be closed and more importantly everyone knows that the church will still be there next week.

The only thing that the bishop's comment would tell me is that the roads are fine from his house to the church but that's probably not the case for everyone.

Please allow me to give a translation to a few of the responses you saw. It's a bit therapeutic for me ;) :
I raised my hand to sustain the Bishop and we should follow him = the bishop is infallible or the bishops says jump...
It depends on what the holy ghost tells you = the holy ghost is telling you to go

Curt Sunshine
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Re: Illegal or not?

Post by Curt Sunshine » 28 Jan 2014, 20:11

I wouldn't have gone if the official status was emergency travel only.

I wouldn't have posted a challenge on Facebook, and I certainly wouldn't have accused the Bishop of encouraging lawlessness.

You asked, so here is my honest assessment of the situation you described:

You both were wrong.

You both ought to change your actions in a situation like this.

I also think you are WAY over-reacting if you can't go to church because you now classify everyone as lawbreakers. First stone and all that jazz.
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Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

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angel333
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Joined: 12 Nov 2013, 04:06

Re: Illegal or not?

Post by angel333 » 29 Jan 2014, 03:49

ummmm I didn't go to church because the policeman we called said we could get a ticket if we were caught on the road. Would you have paid my ticket for me Curtis? Am I on the wrong forum? I thought this was lds support? Breaking the law has really affected my testimony.Im trying to understand if live the gospel why were (the church) breaking the law. Im confused that no one has seen this as breaking the law.Am I blind??? Have I lost my mind??? I thought I finally found the right forum where I wouldnt be critisized and judged for what I am feeling.

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DarkJedi
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Re: Illegal or not?

Post by DarkJedi » 29 Jan 2014, 05:47

I can't speak for Curtis, but I believe he addressed your actions more than your feelings. From what I understand, he wouldn't have done what you did (except he wouldn't have gone to church either), nor would he have done what the bishop did. I also would not have gone to church, but I wouldn't have posted about it, either and likely would have let it go. I believe my own bishop is wholly uninspired anyway, so his opinion is of little consequence to me.

I do understand your feelings that the members of your ward are hypocrites, at least in honoring and obeying the law, and that this incident has proven that to you. If you're looking for a reason not to go to church, you've found it - but we here all know "It's not that simple." I am a bit of a hypocrite myself in that I say I don't go to church because I have difficulty dealing with some of the things people say there in their dogmatic beliefs, yet I also say that I don't really care what other believe and others can't stand in the way of my own salvation. So, either you need to forgive the members, or at least overlook their human faults, or you need to do as you want and not go and be around them. Frankly, I'm not sure what kind of support you're looking for.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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angel333
Posts: 17
Joined: 12 Nov 2013, 04:06

Re: Illegal or not?

Post by angel333 » 29 Jan 2014, 07:34

Here is what I wrote.I didn't out anyone.I just wanted to know the gospel and what we believe is true why did we break the law. Just for those who think I did a horrible thing putting this on facebook can you tell me where I CAN go to ask questions about what we believe if not here?

"I was up most of the night thinking about this. Are we not suppose to obey the law? Was it not the law to do what the police tell us? How do we explain to our children why you were on the road when you were told to stay off.We are not above the law. This has really affected me and brought me down more than I have been. It has confused me in a way most things have that ill never understand. Would someone let me know what law of the land Im suppose to obey and what law of the land Im not suppose to obey so i can have a clean Temple recommend. It doesn't matter if the roads were clear yesterday or not we were told by our law enforcement to stay off. Anyone please help me understand so i can get past this . So who do we talk to about taking Article of Faith number 12 out of our beliefs. The part that says we sustain the law. I just can't wrap my head around this. Im not upset at anyone just having trouble understanding what we teach and preach."

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DarkJedi
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Re: Illegal or not?

Post by DarkJedi » 29 Jan 2014, 08:16

angel333 wrote:Here is what I wrote.I didn't out anyone.I just wanted to know the gospel and what we believe is true why did we break the law. Just for those who think I did a horrible thing putting this on facebook can you tell me where I CAN go to ask questions about what we believe if not here?

"I was up most of the night thinking about this. Are we not suppose to obey the law? Was it not the law to do what the police tell us? How do we explain to our children why you were on the road when you were told to stay off.We are not above the law. This has really affected me and brought me down more than I have been. It has confused me in a way most things have that ill never understand. Would someone let me know what law of the land Im suppose to obey and what law of the land Im not suppose to obey so i can have a clean Temple recommend. It doesn't matter if the roads were clear yesterday or not we were told by our law enforcement to stay off. Anyone please help me understand so i can get past this . So who do we talk to about taking Article of Faith number 12 out of our beliefs. The part that says we sustain the law. I just can't wrap my head around this. Im not upset at anyone just having trouble understanding what we teach and preach."
First, I believe this is the place you can ask that type of question. Asking the question doesn't guarantee an answer. I don't know the answer, and I would have done what you did and stayed home. Let the people in your ward answer their own children's questions. You tell your children that you stayed home because you believed it was unsafe to travel. Obviously some people in your ward believed differently, that's their choice and you can tell your children that, too - heck, even tell them you love them more than others love their children and that's why you decided to stay safe at home.

Second, I realize it's not this one incident that's the problem ("It's not that simple."). You apparently believe in the 12th AofF differently than some of your ward members. Largely this, like almost everything else, depends on our personal perspective. I am certain that if you and I had a discussion about your concept of God versus mine our concepts would be quite different. Likewise how I sustain my local leaders and even the president of the church is likely quite different than your way. That doesn't mean one of us is wrong. My studies and my experiences have lead me to where I am just as yours have lead you to where you are. We can each believe and worship as we choose (that's an AofF, too) and we could both be TR holding members and be totally comfortable that we have not lied. You need to not worry about about what other people believe. The church does indeed teach that we should honor and obey the law of the place where we live. How others do that is not up to you. You believe your bishop was wrong, I agree with you, beyond that it's between him and God.

Third, If that's what you posted on Facebook, I wouldn't have done it. Facebook isn't the place for that IMO. Saying this in private to the bishop or other local leader is one thing, publicly posting something like this is another. You just can't post stuff like that on Facebook or TBM sites and not expect a backlash, and I'm sorry about that. As I said earlier, you can ask here, but that doesn't mean anyone here will have the answer, either.

As a side note, I noticed you haven't actually ever formally introduced yourself. Introductions help people here tremendously in multiple ways, only one of which is helping us understand where you're coming from.

All that said, it's up to others now. I'm not going to respond to this thread further because I've said all I have to say and I clearly don't have an answer that's acceptable to you.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

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