Surprise meeting with Bishop

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amateurparent
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Re: Surprise meeting with Bishop

Post by amateurparent » 27 Jul 2015, 18:41

I would feel okay about her statement, if she had asked for her own death .. To be put out of her own misery.
But .. She wanted her son to die so that SHE could quit suffering the consequences of his actions. That is a different kettle of fish.
I have no advance degrees in parenting. No national credentials. I am an amateur parent. I read, study, and learn all I can to be the best parent possible. Every time I think I have reached expert status with one child for one stage in their life, something changes and I am back to amateur status again. Now when I really mess up, I just apologize to my child, and explain that I am indeed an amateur .. I'm still learning how to do this right.

Curt Sunshine
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Re: Surprise meeting with Bishop

Post by Curt Sunshine » 27 Jul 2015, 18:45

Roy was clear that he believes she did NOT wish for his death.

Let's give her the benefit of the doubt and separate her from what someone else might say. She deserves that, since all we have is Roy's impression.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

amateurparent
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Joined: 19 Jan 2014, 20:43

Re: Surprise meeting with Bishop

Post by amateurparent » 27 Jul 2015, 19:11

Ray and Roy:


Sorry. I guess I got over-focused on the subject. It just brought back some weird memories. When my oldest daughter died, over the first couple years, I would occasionally have a member come to me and mention how much they would appreciate having their child die. Their child had made poor choices and they saw death as "so much better." Each time someone approached me with that comment, it just stunned me all over again.

But .. I had non-LDS women tell me how they wished their ex-husbands had died. They saw widowhood as cooler and more socially acceptable than having a lying/cheating Ex.

In my current ward, a dear friend died a few years ago of cancer. Her husband has re-married. He now talks of the blessing of his first wife's death -- because without it -- he wouldn't have met and married his second wife. I try to think kind thoughts about his statement. But the reality is that it just appalls me every time he brings it up. I loved his first wife. His second wife is an equally wonderful person .. But his choice of words makes me uncomfortable.

Each of these statements/conversations made me so uncomfortable. I cannot seem to phrase my reasons for discomfort properly. But a certain generosity/kindness/concern of the circumstances of others seemed to be missing.
I have no advance degrees in parenting. No national credentials. I am an amateur parent. I read, study, and learn all I can to be the best parent possible. Every time I think I have reached expert status with one child for one stage in their life, something changes and I am back to amateur status again. Now when I really mess up, I just apologize to my child, and explain that I am indeed an amateur .. I'm still learning how to do this right.

Curt Sunshine
Site Admin
Posts: 16780
Joined: 21 Oct 2008, 20:24

Re: Surprise meeting with Bishop

Post by Curt Sunshine » 27 Jul 2015, 20:12

Wow! I understand how those statements would color anything even hinting at that sort of thing.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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SilentDawning
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Re: Surprise meeting with Bishop

Post by SilentDawning » 27 Jul 2015, 20:22

Roy wrote:He said this part both this last visit and two years ago prior to my daughter's baptism.

He said that the Stake President is wary of people that will start paying tithing just prior to the temple wedding of a close relative (like a child). The tithing will need to be paid for a sufficient amount of time to indicate that this is a lifetime change and not just a momentary tit for tat / quid pro quo payment. The bishop will need to have met with the individual and receive assurances that the tithing will continue after the event. Only if the bishop is confident that this is to be the case will he and the SP support a recommend. If the individual begins tithing payment too late to properly establish a track record they may find their recommend request denied and they may miss out on the event.
Good information. Not sure what I will do -- this could happen to me as soon as 2 years from now where I have to make a decision.
For me personally I want to baptize my children and ordain DS to the priesthood (thus continuing on my priesthood line of authority). I am ok with the prospect of waiting outside for any future temple sealings. However, I will not tell my bishop this. He believes that the temple weddings of my kids are leverage that can be used to get me into tithing compliance at some point. It is to my benefit to not disabuse him of this notion.
I don't see any of this as manipulative. Some might argue that tying your participation in a lifetime milestone (a wedding) to your payment of money to an organization is manipulative. I'm sure the policy is meant to be well-meaning from the perspective of the church leaders, but it sure can be hard on families. I won't go into my story, other than to say this policy disadvantaged me when I chose to get married in the temple (excluding my family) and could cause another problem with my daughter if I stay out of the temple this time. This will be a difficult decision when the time comes. I have asked my daughter to consider a civil wedding first so she can help undo the mistake I made 30 years ago, and include my own family in the event. She is considering it and understands. But if she marries a TBM then we will have that issue to contend with on his side of the family...oh what a pickle this policy places on people with non-member families!!!!
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

A man asked Jesus "do all roads lead to you?" Jesus responds,”most roads don’t lead anywhere, but I will travel any road to find you.” Adapted from The Shack, William Young

Roy
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Re: Surprise meeting with Bishop

Post by Roy » 28 Jul 2015, 10:36

{Moderator note: There was a comment made that I felt was both derogatory towards the Mormon experience and an unfair generalization. I do not know the backstory or motivation behind the comment and assume the poster to be speaking from some sort of personal experience. However, as a moderator and the originator of the thread I felt that the post was not appropriate with the thread or in keeping with the rules of the site and I deleted it. I apologize in advance if I offended anyone as this was never my intent. I am still learning how to be an effective moderator. Please keep any further comments relevant to the topics contained in this thread. Thank you.]
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

Roy
Posts: 6035
Joined: 07 Oct 2010, 14:16
Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: Surprise meeting with Bishop

Post by Roy » 28 Jul 2015, 10:47

amateurparent wrote:Ray and Roy:


Sorry. I guess I got over-focused on the subject. It just brought back some weird memories. When my oldest daughter died, over the first couple years, I would occasionally have a member come to me and mention how much they would appreciate having their child die. Their child had made poor choices and they saw death as "so much better." Each time someone approached me with that comment, it just stunned me all over again.

But .. I had non-LDS women tell me how they wished their ex-husbands had died. They saw widowhood as cooler and more socially acceptable than having a lying/cheating Ex.

In my current ward, a dear friend died a few years ago of cancer. Her husband has re-married. He now talks of the blessing of his first wife's death -- because without it -- he wouldn't have met and married his second wife. I try to think kind thoughts about his statement. But the reality is that it just appalls me every time he brings it up. I loved his first wife. His second wife is an equally wonderful person .. But his choice of words makes me uncomfortable.

Each of these statements/conversations made me so uncomfortable. I cannot seem to phrase my reasons for discomfort properly. But a certain generosity/kindness/concern of the circumstances of others seemed to be missing.
No problem AP,

I actually feel I must take some responsibility for the miscommunication as I said that the bishop's wife wanted her son to "return." By using quotation marks it could be implied that "return" was a euphemism for death. I'm sorry for being unclear.

I too have had experiences like what you describe. I actually think that our belief in eternal families can sometimes lead us to be more flippant about death - as though the deceased love one were just on a long vacation.

In this particular instance the bishop's wife was giving examples of people who are true and faithful to the gospel and yet have major trials anyway (such as losing a child in death or through wayward choices). Given that we sometimes pretend that Mormons are insulated from suffering I appreciated that element from her talk.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

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Sheldon
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Re: Surprise meeting with Bishop

Post by Sheldon » 28 Jul 2015, 13:51

Ray DeGraw wrote:The policy was put in place in a time when very few people were marrying people whose family weren't church members, so there weren't the widespread issues of exclusion that occur so often now. The waiting period was for repentance and understanding, since the large percentage of non-temple marriages were due to issues of chastity and conversion.
This is exactly right. In the mid 1960's the FP issued a letter to all SP's saying the one year waiting period could be waved if the extended family were not members so that they could attend the wedding. I kindler, gentler church....

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