Talking to the kids about tithing

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Ilovechrist77
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Re: Talking to the kids about tithing

Post by Ilovechrist77 » 28 Jul 2013, 20:44

I agree with On Own Now about how we're often taught in the church to pay tithing even though you may not have money for anything else you need. I know the Lord blesses people in his own way and time, but are people always supposed to suffer needlessly? We're even taught in the church not to be irresponsible with money. I have no problem with tithing, but sometimes having faith is used as a excuse to give dangerous statements, which cause people to make sacrifices the Lord may not want people to make.

Brown
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Re: Talking to the kids about tithing

Post by Brown » 29 Jul 2013, 00:49

I guess it comes down to what you consider an "increase". If I can't pay for the very basics of life even with my income, do I have any increase? What has been increased?

Now one might argue that in many cases the reason one can't pay their bills is because they are overextended and received more increase than they could handle. I'm not saying you don't pay because you have a $1000 car payment. But if you are really talking about the difference between eviction and tithing, choosing eviction means you are getting a net decrease. Tithing should still leave you with a 90% increase.

The other thing that ruffles my feathers is truly broke and suffering people giving their last dime and eating Ramen for 2 weeks to give a $100 to a church that has hundreds of millions in the bank. I know that's not what it is all about, but please, the logic is painful.

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On Own Now
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Re: Talking to the kids about tithing

Post by On Own Now » 29 Jul 2013, 08:50

Some thoughts on what to say to our kids:

- I think it's important to support the concept of charitable giving in general, and tithing in particular as a premise for conversations. If a parent comes at a child with reasons not to give as much, the message will come across as questioning why they give at all.

- With that framework, I think it is perfectly fine to say that you disagree with the teaching that people should pay even when they don't have enough for basic necessities, and then talk about ways that people in that situation can still contribute (time, talents, energy).

- Fast offering is a great opportunity for people to give, if they don't feel they are giving enough in tithing. Since the concept is to give up 2 meals a month, and to give what you saved so that others might eat, I think this is a great, and undervalued alternative. There will still be people who can't afford this, but they are fewer.

- In the case of your son, church, I would probably lean on the idea that there is plenty of time in the future when he'll be a major contributor in tithing, so concentrating on paying off his debt is not "cheating" God. I'd also mention that the debt burden would be insurmountable to his family if he were to become unable to practice for any reason, so he has a family responsibility to get that burden resolved as soon as possible. I might use the example life insurance and say something like, "obviously, you wouldn't forgo life insurance in order to pay tithing. That wouldn't be responsible, because you are risking your wife's welfare. So, just make sure that you are taking care of your family first, which I think God understands."

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Forgotten_Charity
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Re: Talking to the kids about tithing

Post by Forgotten_Charity » 29 Jul 2013, 09:11

Brown wrote:I guess it comes down to what you consider an "increase". If I can't pay for the very basics of life even with my income, do I have any increase? What has been increased?

The other thing that ruffles my feathers is truly broke and suffering people giving their last dime and eating Ramen for 2 weeks to give a $100 to a church that has hundreds of millions in the bank. I know that's not what it is all about, but please, the logic is painful.
I was one of those people, not just once or twice but several times before it hit me
It took a few years of therapy to understand that some "fundamentalist" beliefs are more harmful then good.
Physiology on the whole sees some of these teachings including this as doing more harm
Then good as in my case and are on the page as treating these teachings like these and others as a mental illness.
Twice did I give money after paying my bills and tithing. The first I staved with 0 food for 1 week while working, the second I starved for 1 1/2 weeks and wound up in the hospital. The 3rd I became homeless on Christmas Day from paying first.
I was homeless for a few months.
For this and many other personal reasons I can not sit by and watch anyone teach extremes in any condition or environment and not say something, though make sure to say it politely.
I love the concept of tithes, in context and reached responsibly(without the expectation of divine intervention).
My wife disagrees with my feelings and that is fine. But no one can take away the lack of the magic check not appearing being used 1000s of times over when ever tithing is taught. It's irrepressible.
I love my bishop, but when I explained my story to him all he did was testify that it is true that god will make up the difference and ill magically be able to pay my bills. Even after I explained everything that happened he basically ignores it and metaphorically trampled on me and my experiences and gave his testimony of his magic check that came from the IRS tax refund out of nowhere. Umm, didn't you do your taxes? When you did them you didn't know you had a refund? Or that it would be coming in approximate weeks? The logic and reason is 0 here. It is all based on mysticism and romantically view.
I do not tolerate extreme teaching any more, no matter the principle. It takes a nice concept and distorts it till it losses all meaning with mysticism and romance. A good portion of psychologist are on the same page and classify it as a disorder now.
Not the people but the extreme teachings themselves and those that take them seriously.
I've talked about it at length with many.
I look at things now through a filter of mental health and "emotional, and physical well being".
Things that accomplish that are used to their potential, things that don't are now tossed.

Roy
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Re: Talking to the kids about tithing

Post by Roy » 29 Jul 2013, 13:26

I think it is hard to give advice to adult children. I have heard that if it must be done then one should meet with the couple together rather than seperately. Otherwise this might set them against each other. I would hate if DW came to me saying that her parents are talking to her about the blessing of paying a full tithe.

In my TBM days I saw tithing a determining factor in God "watching my back." I literally felt that God would honor my tithing compliance by protecting my family from disaster. DW on the other hand feels that it is God's money to begin with and anything less than full compliance is "robbery." After I stopped paying, she had trouble declaring herself as a full tithe payer even after the bishop explained to her that she doesn't make any money. If this is how your son and DIL feel about tithing - proposing anything less than the party line could be frought with landmines. "What do you mean that the promised blessings might only be spiritual?" "Are you saying that the terms of tithing payment are negotiable?" "Why is this so different from what we hear in GC?" "I've heard that reduction/cessation of tithing payments is the first step to apostasy."

Call me chicken - but I would err on the side of minding my own business. OTOH, I wouldn't mind saying something like what Ray mentioned - "I've talked to numerous faithful LDS that calculate a full tithing in different ways and have found it fascinating. I never would have guessed that there are so many alternatives." - if it came up in casual conversation.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

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SilentDawning
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Re: Talking to the kids about tithing

Post by SilentDawning » 03 Aug 2013, 09:01

Ilovechrist77 wrote:I agree with On Own Now about how we're often taught in the church to pay tithing even though you may not have money for anything else you need. I know the Lord blesses people in his own way and time, but are people always supposed to suffer needlessly? We're even taught in the church not to be irresponsible with money. I have no problem with tithing, but sometimes having faith is used as a excuse to give dangerous statements, which cause people to make sacrifices the Lord may not want people to make.
that;s what I think. I think it's irresponsible to pay large sums of money when you don't even have enough for your own needs. I find it ironic that the church teaches self-reliance constantly -- but relegates self-reliance to second place as soon as the discussion turns to tithing.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

A man asked Jesus "do all roads lead to you?" Jesus responds,”most roads don’t lead anywhere, but I will travel any road to find you.” Adapted from The Shack, William Young

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Heavy_Laden
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Re: Talking to the kids about tithing

Post by Heavy_Laden » 03 Aug 2013, 17:59

If they are active members of the Church, I would let them learn it for themselves. They do spend many Sundays talking about tithing, so chances are they have heard that lesson many times.
I'm an Independent Mormon and it's okay. - Staylds.org

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cwald
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Re: Talking to the kids about tithing

Post by cwald » 03 Aug 2013, 21:08

I paid on gross until the day I walked away...20+ years.

I was a good Mormon...can't believe they would throw us to the dogs...

Now, I tell my kids I will not pay tithing until the church agrees to financial transparency, and opens the books and tells me where my tithing money is being spent. I expect that from any charity and institution that runs on private donations.

I don't think that is unreasonable request.



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  Jesus gave us the gospel, but Satan invented church. It takes serious evil to formalize faith into something tedious and then pile guilt on anyone who doesn't participate enthusiastically. - Robert Kirby

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mackay11
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Talking to the kids about tithing

Post by mackay11 » 04 Aug 2013, 15:54

Here's a question to those of you with a single income.

To the earner: is the money "mine" or "ours?"
To the non-earner: is the money "his/hers" or "ours."

If 'Jane' as an earner does want to pay tithing but 'John,' her stay-at-home husband doesn't, who gets the final say?

My wife has been a full time stay at home mum, and been brilliant at it. I've always said it's "our money" not "my money." So if one of us wants to pay tithing and the other doesn't... How would you resolve that? My wife has always been very supportive of me continuing with my activity, including a full tithe, even though she's not attending and probably wouldn't pay a tithe if she had a job.

If I really mean what I say about it being "our" money, would 10% of half my salary still be a full tithe?

Just musing... I wonder what y'all think?

Curt Sunshine
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Re: Talking to the kids about tithing

Post by Curt Sunshine » 04 Aug 2013, 16:06

In my case, it's our money - back when my wife didn't work and since she went back to work.
If I really mean what I say about it being "our" money, would 10% of half my salary still be a full tithe?


If my wife didn't want to pay tithing, and if she didn't want me to pay tithing on our total income, I would have no problem paying it only on my income (if we both had incomes) or paying it on half my income (if she had no other income). Personally, I would not be comfortable not paying it at all, since I want to pay tithing.
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Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

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