Being honest with myself.

Public forum for those seeking support for their experience in the LDS Church.
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mercyngrace
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Joined: 18 Jan 2011, 12:26

Re: Being honest with myself.

Post by mercyngrace » 26 Sep 2012, 20:30

Wayfarer,

Have you been hanging out on the apologetics board again? :shock:

Seriously, I agree with Ray's assessment of the blind obedience to authority mantra. Hogwash. And then some.

As an aside, this week, I've been thinking about the word PONDER. It comes from the same Latin root as the word pound and it means 'to weigh'. Implicit in the idea of weighing is that there are two weights balancing in opposition, whether it is the force of your body against the bathroom scale or the weight of a measure of grain against a measure of some other crop. There are always two sides that have to be weighed one against the other.

Two versions of church history.
Wild and good fruit growing on the same tree as branches go bad or are grafted in.
Positive morals compared with self-righteous religiosity.

And so we ponder. We look at it all. We take it all in. We spend a lifetime weighing and reweighing and weighing yet again.

Here's hoping that very soon your pros outweigh your cons.

Much love,
Cate
Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little. ~ Luke 7:47

Minyan Man
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Joined: 15 Sep 2011, 13:40

Re: Being honest with myself.

Post by Minyan Man » 26 Sep 2012, 21:32

I have found over the years that there are periods, during the year, when I'm spiritually, emotionally, mentally down & vulnerable.
For me it was always the fall season.
It was this time of the year when my drinking was the worse & I went for treatment.
I noticed that even when I didn't drink (alcohol), I'm down.

I like the changes in the season, the color in the leaves, etc.
It didn't make any difference.
Maybe that is what is happening to you too.

Mike from Milton.

church0333
Posts: 589
Joined: 26 Aug 2012, 17:41
Location: Springfield OR

Re: Being honest with myself.

Post by church0333 » 26 Sep 2012, 22:16

Wayfarer,
I have been visiting this site for months and have very recently started posting and I have come to looking forward to your thoughts. I feel very troubled with some of the things about church right now but I trying to work through it and I can honestly say your thoughts have helped me and always keeps me thinking. I kind of compare your ideas and thoughts to a unexpected home teaching visit, you know the good kind where they don't bring a lesson per se but when they leave you know you have felt something good and you know that you matter to some one. Thanks for sharing. I can really appreciate the down times as well as the better times. You seem like one of the good guys and now days we need all we can get.

Nephite

Re: Being honest with myself.

Post by Nephite » 27 Sep 2012, 11:20

wayfarer wrote:I am sitting here this evening, just thinking. I read somewhere today that the church isn't so much about truth as it is about authority: that god has appointed a living prophet, and he is the authoritative source of all I need to know and be happy. All I need to do is follow the prophet and I will never be led astray...
Do you mind if I ask where you read "the church isn't so much about truth as it is about authority"?

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wayfarer
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Being honest with myself.

Post by wayfarer » 27 Sep 2012, 12:39

A point of explanation. I truly love the path of the middle way. What I love most is authenticity. Some days, when I feel down, like when I posted this OP, I express myself in ways that sound negative. And you know? That's ok! I am tired of pretending. I gave that up a long time ago.

I feel that many hold to the idea that enlightenment is going to a new level, where frustration and negative thoughts never happen. To this I say "BS"!!!!

We go through cycles. Every one of us is deeply human. Making mistakes, feeling down... This is what it means to be human.

The flaw of painting our leaders as superhuman makes us want to pretend to be more than human ourselves. Screw it. The authentic "saint" is profoundly human.

This, to me, is real authentic faith: admitting I don't know, I don't believe, I'm human... And you know... In that moment of authenticity, we support each other in very unique and special ways. And this, to me, is participating in the divine.

Thank god for all of you... Who are here when I need you.
"Those who speak don't know, those who know don't speak." Lao Tzu.
My seat in the bloggernacle: http://wayfaringfool.blogspot.com

Roy
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Joined: 07 Oct 2010, 14:16
Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: Being honest with myself.

Post by Roy » 27 Sep 2012, 13:39

wayfarer wrote:I'm human... And you know... In that moment of authenticity, we support each other in very unique and special ways. And this, to me, is participating in the divine.
When I started posting here around two years ago, I was helped immeasurably by certain key individuals. All were helpful but for some reason I was drawn to the postings of some more than the others.

Perhaps because they had done so much for me, I put them on a pedestal. I was thinking that once I could walk this middle road of enlightenment as well as they - things would work out better - I would cease to be hurt or offended because I would see the motives and limited viewpoints of my injurers and forgive them.

Over time I have gotten to know everyone better (as much as is possible for quasi-strangers typing on computers). I have come to understand that those whose wisdom I admire most still struggle. Having a measure of wisdom does not elevate you above life or being human. I still admire those friends here - even more so now because in the midst of their own problems they still cared enough to help me.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

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wayfarer
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Being honest with myself.

Post by wayfarer » 27 Sep 2012, 15:17

Roy, I think being truly honest with ourselves is the essence of enightenment.

When Peter started getting enthralled with himself while walking on water, he sank.
"Those who speak don't know, those who know don't speak." Lao Tzu.
My seat in the bloggernacle: http://wayfaringfool.blogspot.com

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Heber13
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Re: Being honest with myself.

Post by Heber13 » 27 Sep 2012, 15:28

wayfarer wrote:We go through cycles. Every one of us is deeply human. Making mistakes, feeling down... This is what it means to be human.
Realizing this is divine, I believe.

I think there is an additional burden (is that the right word?) of Middle Way thinking, because it is personal to how you assess it. That can make it more meaningful and of greater personal value. It can also feel lonely at times.

I think, my friend, your authenticity is respected by and shared by others. At times, I honestly feel the same way. And I find myself still striving to learn more each day. We go through cycles.

Thanks for your example, and all you add to the forum.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

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hawkgrrrl
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Re: Being honest with myself.

Post by hawkgrrrl » 27 Sep 2012, 19:59

Wayfarer, you are a favorite of mine, too! I love your comments. A couple years ago I was having an interesting conversation with a good friend of mine who is a former bishop and very TBM. I said how much I disliked it that people held the prophet to be infallible and pushed wrong thinking like the Fourteen Fundamentals without being corrected. Rather than being shocked at my skepticism, he readily agreed. He said he fully believes that the prophets have to work out their salvation with fear and trembling like we all do.

I believe it's just wishful thinking and abdication of personal responsibilty. If it's possible to get an A+ before the test is even done, how is that fair? And if people can be saved by being unthinking drones (when the brethren speak, the thinking is done), then what's the merit in exaltation?

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InquiringMind
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Re: Being honest with myself.

Post by InquiringMind » 28 Sep 2012, 13:53

Wayfarer, I've appreciated your comments. You've helped me to see that things aren't so black-and-white.
wayfarer wrote:I read somewhere today that the church isn't so much about truth as it is about authority: that god has appointed a living prophet, and he is the authoritative source of all I need to know and be happy. All I need to do is follow the prophet and I will never be led astray.

I can fake it 'til the cows come home. I don't believe it. I don't accept it. It's a control drama I refuse to buy into.
We only rely on authority as a source of truth when the facts are uncertain, and we rely on evidence when the facts are clear. We appeal to authority when we have nothing else to appeal to, when nobody has any idea what the answer is and there is no good evidence supporting any answers. Authority is the "last resort" for finding truth. The reality is that nobody knows what happens after we die and nobody knows what God is really like because the evidence is so tenuous, so we have to rely on authority because we don't have good evidence.
wayfarer wrote:But you want to know what I really believe? None of it.
I am slowly coming to this realization, piece by piece. It's extremely hard. My whole worldview is falling apart, and I have to go item by item in my mind and reevaluate what I believe.

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