Garments and body image

Public forum for those seeking support for their experience in the LDS Church.
GBSmith
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Joined: 24 Apr 2010, 08:51

Re: Garments and body image

Post by GBSmith » 29 May 2013, 11:02

Kipper wrote:
GBSmith wrote:
Kipper wrote:... Is it immoral to feel the sun and wind on your body and skin? Close your eye, put headphones in and lounge on the patio? Spend Saturday morning working in the garden in shorts and no shirt?
Nope

Probably a subject for another thread but in an organization that's hierarchical with rules it's just easier to ask for a list than to decide for your self.

I don't understand. There has to be parameters or rules to follow.
For me the rule is to wear the garment throughout my life and not defile it. That's what I agreed to in the temple.
Just doing what feels right to you lends itself to hundreds or thousands of meanings and no standard.
On the list of shoulds in the Handbook is the little proviso about following the spirit. To me that's not necessarily having a revelation as it is to use my brain and decide for myself. Letting people make up their own minds doesn't always lead to chaos.
The handbook and the message from the FP read during the interview are clear, for me less than a month ago. The message is no sunbathing while sitting or working in the yard.
Ray's comments above speak to this whole matter very well and I recommend them to you if you've not already seen them. I choose to wear and not wear my garments at varioius times and do it with a clear conscience. I answer yes to the recommend question without my fingers crossed. For further information you might want to check out http://www.ldssdf.com/v.2/

Kipper
Posts: 291
Joined: 27 Aug 2012, 07:45

Re: Garments and body image

Post by Kipper » 29 May 2013, 12:08

Kipper wrote:
GBSmith wrote:
Kipper wrote:... Is it immoral to feel the sun and wind on your body and skin? Close your eye, put headphones in and lounge on the patio? Spend Saturday morning working in the garden in shorts and no shirt?
Nope

I don't understand. There has to be parameters or rules to follow.
For me the rule is to wear the garment throughout my life and not defile it. That's what I agreed to in the temple.
Just doing what feels right to you lends itself to hundreds or thousands of meanings and no standard.
On the list of shoulds in the Handbook is the little proviso about following the spirit. To me that's not necessarily having a revelation as it is to use my brain and decide for myself. Letting people make up their own minds doesn't always lead to chaos.
The handbook and the message from the FP read during the interview are clear, for me less than a month ago. The message is no sunbathing while sitting or working in the yard.
Ray's comments above speak to this whole matter very well and I recommend them to you if you've not already seen them. I choose to wear and not wear my garments at varioius times and do it with a clear conscience. I answer yes to the recommend question without my fingers crossed. For further information you might want to check out http://www.ldssdf.com/v.2/

OK, so I have a little better idea of what I should be following. The should and should not are not the same as will and must and are not part of the covenant. I need to hear the actual covenant again myself altho I think I have a pretty good idea what it says from previous posts. BTW, I "cuff" my bottoms if they are going to be exposed under my short pants even if the pants are knee length. I feel this better than having a silly looking hem hanging out and attracting attention.

Roy
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Joined: 07 Oct 2010, 14:16
Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: Garments and body image

Post by Roy » 29 May 2013, 15:13

Kipper wrote:Just doing what feels right to you lends itself to hundreds or thousands of meanings and no standard.
I agree when we are talking about withdrawing funds from corporate accounts but it is important to remember that we are talking about underwear here. If we must be told how to wear underwear where would the slippery slope stop?
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

Curt Sunshine
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Re: Garments and body image

Post by Curt Sunshine » 29 May 2013, 15:54

It's like the flight attendant who shows everyone how to use the seatbelt.

Really?!?!

If you don't know how to use a seatbelt, you shouldn't be flying.

As Hawkgrrrl says, at some point we need to grow up and become adults of God.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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wuwei
Posts: 145
Joined: 23 Jan 2013, 06:35

Re: Garments and body image

Post by wuwei » 29 May 2013, 17:09

As i stated before, I think the standard is just to do what feels right between you and god, be happy with that, and not worry about how the next person wears his or her underwear. There might be 100000 applications of the standard but the standard is the same.

I like the "adults of god" concept very much. God didn't give us agency and reason just so we could ignore reason and turn our agency over to the church. JS and his first vision story are a great example of this. If he'd just turned his agency over to his mom's church like his pastor would have wanted we wouldn't have any of this to debate. But he showed that what god told him directly was more important than his church authorities. The church forgets that sometimes. Its always easier to just follow someone you think is inspired from god instead of seeking him yourself. But its not a substitute.

Kipper
Posts: 291
Joined: 27 Aug 2012, 07:45

Re: Garments and body image

Post by Kipper » 29 May 2013, 17:28

wuwei wrote:I like the "adults of god" concept very much.
Me too. I'm going to ingrain this into my life.
wuwei wrote:God didn't give us agency and reason just so we could ignore reason and turn our agency over to the church.
I think God gave the power to reason more strongly to some than to others. I sometimes get the impression that my ability to reason and think for myself is looked at as influence from the adversary.
wuwei wrote:Its always easier to just follow someone you think is inspired from god instead of seeking him yourself. But its not a substitute.
It is also my impression that this is standard and encouraged. I may be leaving if I can't get past this.

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AngryMormon
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Joined: 04 Oct 2012, 18:54
Location: Seattle

Re: Garments and body image

Post by AngryMormon » 29 May 2013, 17:55

rebeccad wrote:The problem is that what people are told is up to the whim of the temple worker who talks to them that day.
I would really like if what was written stayed the same, and nothing was added to it.
What we really need is consistency!
I think the problem is that we are willing to accept and open ourselves up to what the temple worker is telling us in first place. I think if we make decesions on how to wear our underwear based on what some random stranger tells us, we are setting ourselves up for some difficulty. I think what we really need is not to ask the temple worker in the first place.

Curt Sunshine
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Re: Garments and body image

Post by Curt Sunshine » 29 May 2013, 21:38

I think what we really need is not to ask the temple worker in the first place.


Yup.

There's this old saying:
Ask a stupid question; get a stupid answer.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

Bds4206
Posts: 25
Joined: 30 May 2012, 04:21

Re: Garments and body image

Post by Bds4206 » 30 May 2013, 06:42

AngryMormon wrote:
rebeccad wrote:The problem is that what people are told is up to the whim of the temple worker who talks to them that day.
I would really like if what was written stayed the same, and nothing was added to it.
What we really need is consistency!
I think the problem is that we are willing to accept and open ourselves up to what the temple worker is telling us in first place. I think if we make decesions on how to wear our underwear based on what some random stranger tells us, we are setting ourselves up for some difficulty. I think what we really need is not to ask the temple worker in the first place.

In my case I didn't ask the temple workers, the temple president sat down with me and told me how the garments were expected to be worn, and treated. So all the information I received on them I took to be the the "company line" on the subject. Not just one mans interpretation.

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wayfarer
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Re: Garments and body image

Post by wayfarer » 30 May 2013, 06:59

I don't think anyone is wrong in stating that prevailing church interpretation of wearing the garment is that it stays on your body day and night, and should only be removed for showering, sex, and certain activities like swimming or team sports. As well, it should be treated with respect (not defiled), and generally not exposed (requiring clothing that goes beyond the knees and shoulders).

I believe the more important question is whether the "prevailing church interpretation" is indeed a commandment or a requirement for being "worthy". I personally think the answer to that is "no". The "Covenant" in the temple is stated in these terms: If you wear it throughout you life and not defile it, it will be a shield and protection to you. This is a principle with promise, not a commandment. If I choose not to wear the physical garment, then in that moment, it cannot be a shield and protection to me. If I wear the garment, literally, it is a physical modesty shield (coupled with covering clothing) and a protection from observation -- much like a burka is for muslim women. Symbolically, the garment is a reminder of my covenants -- in that way, wearing it is also a protection -- by being reminded of my covenants, I'm protected from making certain choices.

I personally wear the garment along the lines of the prevailing interpretation. There have been times, in some very hot climates, that I have had to remove the top because it simply would cause more sweating than it's worth. Is that wrong? No. it's necessary -- it's reasonable, and as many of you have noted, it's an adult thing to do.
"Those who speak don't know, those who know don't speak." Lao Tzu.
My seat in the bloggernacle: http://wayfaringfool.blogspot.com

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