Garments and body image

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grobert93
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Re: Garments and body image

Post by grobert93 » 15 Apr 2019, 08:45

rrosskopf wrote:
15 Apr 2019, 07:20
grobert93 wrote:
13 Apr 2019, 07:06

It's the act of a thin and not-well designed under garment brushing against her skin that is the problem.
There seems to be a tendancy to treat every problem as if it is insurmountable. I don't believe in that philosophy. Certainly there is a cost to faith. If your faith were free, it would be of little value to you. It is all too easy to come up with excuses. Laban can kill a hundred men; he can certainly kill us. Instead of dwelling on the negative, shouldn't we encourage people? Literally give them the courage to act in faith?
While I understand where this attitude is coming from (since I was once a “have faith and it will work out” kind of person myself, it does lead to both unhealthy and even toxic ideas and expectations places on each other that may be out of context of the Lord’s initial desire. For those who believe in wearing the garment according to the instructions (letter of the law) given, there is no excuse. But there are others who believe that the Lord is more interested in our efforts to try. I don’t think the Lord will punish someone with a skin condition who is unable to wear garments, just as much as he probably wouldn’t punish someone who is physically disabled and unable to easily attend the temple frequently.

The world is not black and white, and I don’t believe the church is either. If the Lord is truly that strict to all of his children , then I truly believe a good majority of us would not qualify for the highest degree, even if we tried. Even with the atonement.

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hawkgrrrl
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Re: Garments and body image

Post by hawkgrrrl » 15 Apr 2019, 11:58

rrosskopf wrote:
15 Apr 2019, 07:20
There seems to be a tendancy to treat every problem as if it is insurmountable. I don't believe in that philosophy. Certainly there is a cost to faith. If your faith were free, it would be of little value to you. It is all too easy to come up with excuses. Laban can kill a hundred men; he can certainly kill us. Instead of dwelling on the negative, shouldn't we encourage people? Literally give them the courage to act in faith?
One of my favorite tweets was: "We all know that Joseph Smith didn't wear his garments at Carthage, but did you also know that he never wore them during menopause?" You can't faith your way out of a yeast infection which is a problem women face that seems to still have never been conceived of by the males who are overseeing the approval of designs. You can't square that circle with a layer of fabric from hip to knees which is never healthy if that's an issue. For health reasons, when women wore ankle length dresses, they did not wear underpants as female parts should not be covered in fabrics that can't breathe. There are other health issues unique to women as well.

Please educate yourself or at minimum, don't assume you know more than real women who have women's bodies.

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dande48
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Re: Garments and body image

Post by dande48 » 15 Apr 2019, 12:36

hawkgrrrl wrote:
15 Apr 2019, 11:58
One of my favorite tweets was: "We all know that Joseph Smith didn't wear his garments at Carthage, but did you also know that he never wore them during menopause?" You can't faith your way out of a yeast infection which is a problem women face that seems to still have never been conceived of by the males who are overseeing the approval of designs. You can't square that circle with a layer of fabric from hip to knees which is never healthy if that's an issue. For health reasons, when women wore ankle length dresses, they did not wear underpants as female parts should not be covered in fabrics that can't breathe. There are other health issues unique to women as well.
That's a very good point. It's been embarrassing how little men understand female anatomy when enacting those sort of rules. It reminded me of how Moses (or was it God?) didn't understand how hymens work, and commanded the stoning of brides who didn't have them torn open on their wedding night (Deut. 22:13-21). Oops!

If garments give you skin irritation, infections, rashes, etc, isn't that as sure a sign as any that they are not of God? :twisted:
"The whole world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel." - Horace Walpole

"Even though there are no ways of knowing for sure, there are ways of knowing for pretty sure."
-Lemony Snicket

Curt Sunshine
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Re: Garments and body image

Post by Curt Sunshine » 15 Apr 2019, 14:38

Nobody answer that last question. Sarcasm is fine here, but some people might not recognize it as such and answer it seriously.

:D :smile: :P :thumbup:
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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rrosskopf
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Re: Garments and body image

Post by rrosskopf » 15 Apr 2019, 15:04

hawkgrrrl wrote:
15 Apr 2019, 11:58
Please educate yourself or at minimum, don't assume you know more than real women who have women's bodies.
I have nothing against designing more comfortable garments. I have a wife. She is going through menopause. You don't think I know the issues? I'm pretty sure that all those men who designed women's garments had wives as well, and I'm not entirely sure they weren't designed by women. I can't picture men doing the sewing in 1840. So please - fill free to explain how it is all the fault of ignorant men.

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hawkgrrrl
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Re: Garments and body image

Post by hawkgrrrl » 15 Apr 2019, 17:11

rrosskopf wrote:
15 Apr 2019, 15:04
Please educate yourself or at minimum, don't assume you know more than real women who have women's bodies.
I have nothing against designing more comfortable garments. I have a wife. She is going through menopause. You don't think I know the issues? I'm pretty sure that all those men who designed women's garments had wives as well, and I'm not entirely sure they weren't designed by women. I can't picture men doing the sewing in 1840. So please - fill free to explain how it is all the fault of ignorant men.
Not experiencing the issues means that no, you don't really know the issues. My dad had an enlarged prostrate, and I can tell you for a fact that I have no idea (nor does my mother) what that is like.

There are 49 recorded possible symptoms of menopause. Different women have different symptoms. Some women take hormones, and others can't or don't. There are many different manifestations. While women may be seamstresses, that's not the same as the approvers of designs. That is done by the Q15, and last I checked, they were all men. None of them have ever been gynocologists, either (although even in that case, it's all theoretical knowledge, not experiential).

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dande48
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Re: Garments and body image

Post by dande48 » 15 Apr 2019, 18:45

Curt Sunshine wrote:
15 Apr 2019, 14:38
Nobody answer that last question. Sarcasm is fine here, but some people might not recognize it as such and answer it seriously.
I explicitly put up the "devil" emoji, to indicate my sarcasm. ;) I don't think it is a sign. But it's also a "though experiment", since it is very similar to other evidence given for the "will and mind of God". While rhetotical and admittedly sarcastic, I do think it is something important to critically consider. Why we accept certain things as evidence when it's in favor of what we already believe, but quickly reject that same evidence when it points in the opposite direction?
"The whole world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel." - Horace Walpole

"Even though there are no ways of knowing for sure, there are ways of knowing for pretty sure."
-Lemony Snicket

Curt Sunshine
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Re: Garments and body image

Post by Curt Sunshine » 15 Apr 2019, 19:19

I get it, dande48. It's just a rabbit hole we don't need in this discussion right now.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

Curt Sunshine
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Re: Garments and body image

Post by Curt Sunshine » 15 Apr 2019, 19:26

rrosskopf, as an admin here I am telling you directly that your comments often are not in line with our mission. An orthodox perspective is fine; delivering it in a judgmental, condemning, patronizing, and/or confrontational way is not.

Please read the rules of etiquette for this site and our mission, if you have not done so yet. We moderate relatively infrequently compared to many sites, but we do moderate. Our mission is important to us. If you can support unorthodox members trying to stay LDS in their own way, you are welcome here. If you are trying to help others have orthodox views and practices, this is not the site for you.

Your call. No hard feelings whatsoever if you pick either option.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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dande48
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Re: Garments and body image

Post by dande48 » 15 Apr 2019, 21:12

Curt Sunshine wrote:
15 Apr 2019, 19:19
I get it, dande48. It's just a rabbit hole we don't need in this discussion right now.
Fair enough, you are right. I apologize.
"The whole world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel." - Horace Walpole

"Even though there are no ways of knowing for sure, there are ways of knowing for pretty sure."
-Lemony Snicket

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