SP says I cannot baptize my son

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SilentDawning
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Re: SP says I cannot baptize my son

Post by SilentDawning » 24 Nov 2011, 07:53

wonderingcurrent wrote:Personally, this is why I say, "Yes" to the questions. Honestly it isn't the questions on the TR interview that bug me. Its the assumption that everything is doctrine and of the Lord. That excuse was used up at School on more then one occasion for things to happen. (I went to BYU-Idaho, have graduated), It just doesn't make sense to me. No not everything is of the Lord in a Church, in which the Lord gives men agency to do as they see fit so long as they follow certain commandments.
You're better off saying yes to the questions that involve testimony, relying on the "shades of belief" concept -- that the questions which say "do you believe" can be interpreted at multiple levels.

If you think about it, the Church has little claim on us except the embarrassment of not being able to participate in certain ordinances, as well as the cultural stigma. The general approach of "I have a testimony but I have commitment problems due to [insert near unsolveable problem here]" held me in good stead many years ago. And after I got my commitment back, it didn't limit me one bit in terms of cultural and ordinance-related priviledges when my commitment finally caught up with my beliefs at the time.

They will quote scripture at you -- whatever applies, and some of the hard nosed leaders will threaten you with losing your salvation (that has happened to me twice, once in a general statement at Stake Conference, and once to my face from a HC in a meeting), or snub you, but that is the price of the freedom to progress and grow at your own pace. You need to have answers to the scripture-quoting that are personal, not rebuttals using our scriptures lest you be labelled apostate.

At least I know that every time I served in an official capacity after my commitment crisis ended, I did so with integrity and authenticity -- and only when I had the commitment and belief to be real. And when I wasn't full of commitment, I was also full of integrity in acting at a level that matched my current state of mind.

And I continue with that today.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

A man asked Jesus "do all roads lead to you?" Jesus responds,”most roads don’t lead anywhere, but I will travel any road to find you.” Adapted from The Shack, William Young

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Thoreau
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Re: SP says I cannot baptize my son

Post by Thoreau » 25 Nov 2011, 09:19

I've been away for a few days and I have't read the entire thread, especially in detail. I do want to make some points that might have already been made.

Baptism is an Aaronic Priesthood ordinance. It does not require a temple recommend which implies it does not require temple worthiness.

Go look at chapter 20 in handbook 2. It's on the Church website and is available to all. You don't need an account. You can find the handbook under serving in the church.
“If a man does not keep pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music which he hears, however measured or far away.” Henry David Thoreau

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wayfarer
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Re: SP says I cannot baptize my son

Post by wayfarer » 25 Nov 2011, 11:10

Thoreau wrote:I've been away for a few days and I have't read the entire thread, especially in detail. I do want to make some points that might have already been made.

Baptism is an Aaronic Priesthood ordinance. It does not require a temple recommend which implies it does not require temple worthiness.

Go look at chapter 20 in handbook 2. It's on the Church website and is available to all. You don't need an account. You can find the handbook under serving in the church.
it appears like the SP was trying to weed out some apostasy, and used the opportunity of a father wanting to baptise his child as a way to put a lever on a confession. It doesn't seem that the SP was following the manual on this one.
"Those who speak don't know, those who know don't speak." Lao Tzu.
My seat in the bloggernacle: http://wayfaringfool.blogspot.com

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cwald
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Re: SP says I cannot baptize my son

Post by cwald » 25 Nov 2011, 12:20

wayfarer wrote:
Thoreau wrote:I've been away for a few days and I have't read the entire thread, especially in detail. I do want to make some points that might have already been made.

Baptism is an Aaronic Priesthood ordinance. It does not require a temple recommend which implies it does not require temple worthiness.

Go look at chapter 20 in handbook 2. It's on the Church website and is available to all. You don't need an account. You can find the handbook under serving in the church.
it appears like the SP was trying to weed out some apostasy, and used the opportunity of a father wanting to baptise his child as a way to put a lever on ....
I would say this is exactly true. EXACTLY. My own family and church leaders tried to use jwald and my kids against me. When they made me choose, and jwald choose, and we decided that WE were more important than the church, all this church pressure and discipline kind of went away. I think my family and leaders were surprised - almost like they expected jwald to "put me in my place" and "get my act together." Unfortunate, all too often the church uses family against family to protect their own interest. That is wrong. That is not god-like or christian-like in any sense of the term. It's just flat out wrong and needs to end.

The sorry part of this kind of crap, is I should never have had to choose. jwald should never have had to make the choices in regards to her husband and church. And Strebor and his wife should not be put in this place where they have to make these choices in regards to faith and family. This is ecclesiastical emotional and spiritual bullying and it needs to end.
  Jesus gave us the gospel, but Satan invented church. It takes serious evil to formalize faith into something tedious and then pile guilt on anyone who doesn't participate enthusiastically. - Robert Kirby

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SilentDawning
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Re: SP says I cannot baptize my son

Post by SilentDawning » 25 Nov 2011, 13:46

I experienced the same feelings of betrayal when a priesthood leader, who lives around the corner from me, and sees me regularly, thought it best to go behind my back to pump my wife for information about my commitment-loss.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

A man asked Jesus "do all roads lead to you?" Jesus responds,”most roads don’t lead anywhere, but I will travel any road to find you.” Adapted from The Shack, William Young

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cwald
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Re: SP says I cannot baptize my son

Post by cwald » 25 Nov 2011, 14:25

SD, I just spewed coffee all over the counter. I get what you are saying but you may want to change some of your wordage. ;)
  Jesus gave us the gospel, but Satan invented church. It takes serious evil to formalize faith into something tedious and then pile guilt on anyone who doesn't participate enthusiastically. - Robert Kirby

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wayfarer
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Re: SP says I cannot baptize my son

Post by wayfarer » 25 Nov 2011, 15:35

cwald wrote:SD, I just spewed coffee all over the counter. I get what you are saying but you may want to change some of your wordage. ;)
:lol: careful, you might be thought to have a :evil: mind...
"Those who speak don't know, those who know don't speak." Lao Tzu.
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wayfarer
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Re: SP says I cannot baptize my son

Post by wayfarer » 25 Nov 2011, 15:37

cwald wrote:The sorry part of this kind of crap, is I should never have had to choose. jwald should never have had to make the choices in regards to her husband and church. And Strebor and his wife should not be put in this place where they have to make these choices in regards to faith and family. This is ecclesiastical emotional and spiritual bullying and it needs to end.
indeed. religious abuse and harrassment is perfectly evil.
"Those who speak don't know, those who know don't speak." Lao Tzu.
My seat in the bloggernacle: http://wayfaringfool.blogspot.com

Curt Sunshine
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Re: SP says I cannot baptize my son

Post by Curt Sunshine » 25 Nov 2011, 16:05

I'm glad someone else caught that wording, cwald. :oops: :oops:
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

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cwald
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Re: SP says I cannot baptize my son

Post by cwald » 25 Nov 2011, 16:10

Yeah, it's good to put a little light-heartedness in this crappy thread. Thanks SD - whether it was deliberate or not.
  Jesus gave us the gospel, but Satan invented church. It takes serious evil to formalize faith into something tedious and then pile guilt on anyone who doesn't participate enthusiastically. - Robert Kirby

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