OK, I'll try to listen with an open mind

Public forum for those seeking support for their experience in the LDS Church.
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mercyngrace
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Re: OK, I'll try to listen with an open mind

Post by mercyngrace » 05 May 2011, 14:49

SilentDawning wrote:If God HAD NOT reconciled justice and mercy, then how would we be saved eventually?
God doesn't reconcile justice and mercy.

Christ claims the rights of mercy (Morroni 7) which overpowers justice (Alma 34) as we are merciful to each other (Matthew 5).

Justice isn't robbed. It's abdicated by those who opt to lay down their stones, recognizing their own need for mercy.

In the presence of a sinless advocate (D&C 45) who suffered a profound unjustice but refused to claim His right to recompense (Philippians 2), we are speechless to level a charge against our offenders (Luke 7).
Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little. ~ Luke 7:47

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SilentDawning
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Re: OK, I'll try to listen with an open mind

Post by SilentDawning » 05 May 2011, 14:55

My point is that God found a way of making these opposing forces work together for good....I would like to see how the reconciliation happens between the temporal vagaries and the divine claims of His Church...
It obviously doesn't -- there has been no reconciliation there.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"Stage 5 is where you no longer believe the gospel as its literally or traditionally taught. Nonetheless, you find your own way to be active and at peace within it". -- SD

The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

My introduction: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1576

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mercyngrace
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Re: OK, I'll try to listen with an open mind

Post by mercyngrace » 05 May 2011, 15:05

SilentDawning wrote:My point is that God found a way of making these opposing forces work together for good....I would like to see how the reconciliation happens between the temporal vagaries and the divine claims of His Church...
It obviously doesn't -- there has been no reconciliation there.
I think that God teaches us how to reconcile by example and then we have to do the hard work of becoming people who are capable of reconciliation. The way I see the gospel is that it's all about becoming.

The idea that God should hand us a perfect church is comparable to asking why we need salvation in the first place, why can't God just save us without respect to commandments, repentance, or atonement?

It's the process that matters. We have to build a kingdom one brick at a time. Otherwise, it really won't be our kingdom and we won't be kings and queens worthy of inheriting it.

PS I probably sound like a broken record ;) I guess the way I've come to see everything is as a facet of eternal progression. LOL.
Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little. ~ Luke 7:47

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SilentDawning
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Re: OK, I'll try to listen with an open mind

Post by SilentDawning » 05 May 2011, 16:04

Well, then taking that approach, it means that the only way to reconcile the extremely temporal behavior of the Church with its claim to a divine commission is personal sacrifice then, correct?
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"Stage 5 is where you no longer believe the gospel as its literally or traditionally taught. Nonetheless, you find your own way to be active and at peace within it". -- SD

The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

My introduction: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1576

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mercyngrace
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Re: OK, I'll try to listen with an open mind

Post by mercyngrace » 05 May 2011, 16:56

SilentDawning wrote:Well, then taking that approach, it means that the only way to reconcile the extremely temporal behavior of the Church with its claim to a divine commission is personal sacrifice then, correct?
Just to make sure I'm understanding correctly, to what kind of personal sacrifice are you referring, SD?
Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little. ~ Luke 7:47

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SilentDawning
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Re: OK, I'll try to listen with an open mind

Post by SilentDawning » 05 May 2011, 17:50

Sacrifice your idealism -- almost like "willing suspension of disbelief" that you sacrifice in movies to stay engaged with it when things happen that don't seem real or believable. Sacrifice your hopes that somehow, the Church is different and better than other organizations given its claims to a divine commission with God at the helm. Sacrifice your belief that the scripture stories about Ammon and Alma are applicable in our day -- sacrifice your belief that obstacles like money are not significant obstacles to achieving miracles and great things in our day, and that the words of the prophets should be followed at all costs (as in 1 Nephi 3:5). Sacrifice your belief that Church leader's claim on divine inspiration somehow makes them come up with solutions or possess attitudes that are different than those held by a manager in a strictly temporal organization.

M&G, I had an experience as a YSA that juxtaposed the temporal interests of the Church against the idealistic stories in the scriptures, and it was a rude awakening for me at the age of 21, as a new convert. Since then, I have had trouble reconciling the claims to divine direction with the fact that the Church is JUST as pre-occupied with temporal matters as any other organization. So, the things in the first paragraph are the things I personally must sacrifice to believe wholeheartedly in this organization again. We are truly touching my heart and inner psyche with this conversation, as these things MATTER to me, I've realized.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"Stage 5 is where you no longer believe the gospel as its literally or traditionally taught. Nonetheless, you find your own way to be active and at peace within it". -- SD

The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

My introduction: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1576

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mercyngrace
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Re: OK, I'll try to listen with an open mind

Post by mercyngrace » 05 May 2011, 19:23

Thanks for that response, SD, I wasn't sure exactly how to take your question and I was traveling along a completely different line of thought.

I'm not sure if I sacrificed my idealism or if my ideal simply changed.

I will say that I've faced a couple of difficult situations where the institution of the church seemed to contradict the teachings of Christ. These moments felt to me like Abraham standing over a bound Isaac. The hardest thing ever asked of me has been to submit to policies that were clearly written for a telestial people while I was willing to abide a celestial law.

It was my personal Gethsemane.

So I don't mean to sound dismissive, if I come across that way, of disillusion with the institution of the church. Working through that process was brutal for me and I can't promise that how I've reconciled things will satisfy anyone else. All I know is that I am still completely active in the church but the church doesn't define my spirituality. The church is just a vehicle clattering along a bumpy road through the wilderness with a meandering course plotted toward the promised land.
Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little. ~ Luke 7:47

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SilentDawning
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Re: OK, I'll try to listen with an open mind

Post by SilentDawning » 05 May 2011, 19:49

No, it's not dismissive. I think it comes from a diffferent place than myself however. I did expect the Church to somehow be above the things of the world when I was younger, and I was shocked at the attitude of a SP when I approached him about serving a mission.

I left completely bewildered, disappointed, angry, confused at the time. Later, on a mission, he told my girlfriend that after the night he blew me away, he "thought he'd never see me again". When he made that comment, I realized how incredibly disposable we are and how temporal matters trump human kindness or caring -- at least, in the case of that man, and a few others I've encountered along the way.

Taken with my INFJ, my idealistic self as a young adult, and my intellectual, philosophical nature, and my tendency to take the scriptures and prophetic words literally at one time, it makes things like this hard to take. I'm seeing this as the root of one of my problems -- this idealism that was totally blown out of the water by a hard-nut SP with strong business interests.

Someone once suggested that I write to him and explain the impact he had on me at the time, and then later....but I believe he would not care less. Plus he would think I was apostate and not be too concerned.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"Stage 5 is where you no longer believe the gospel as its literally or traditionally taught. Nonetheless, you find your own way to be active and at peace within it". -- SD

The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

My introduction: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1576

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mercyngrace
Posts: 517
Joined: 18 Jan 2011, 12:26

Re: OK, I'll try to listen with an open mind

Post by mercyngrace » 05 May 2011, 20:16

Yeah - I've had experiences like that. When I went to my bishop to put in my papers for my mission he said "No. Girls really shouldn't go on missions." So I went to live with my older brother half a country away and found myself a new bishop. ;)

I grew up in the church and my parents held leadership positions so I saw the church warts and all on a local level. My rose colored glasses were gazing in the direction of SLC. I could ignore some local yokel exercising unrighteous dominion but realizing that prophets and apostles were human and that church policies sometimes sacrificed principle for expediency, well that was tough. Turned out some of the local yokels I was dismissing were just following orders. That hurt.
Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little. ~ Luke 7:47

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Tom Haws
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Re: OK, I'll try to listen with an open mind

Post by Tom Haws » 05 May 2011, 22:13

mercyngrace wrote:The hardest thing ever asked of me has been to submit to policies that were clearly written for a telestial people while I was willing to abide a celestial law.
I think it might be personally helpful to me if you are willing to expand on this idea. Tell me some stories!
Tom (aka Justin Martyr/Justin Morning/Jacob Marley/Kupord Maizzed)
Higley and Guadalupe
Gilbert, Arizona
----
Sure, any religion would do. But I'm LDS.
"There are no academic issues. Everything is emotional to somebody." Ray Degraw at www.StayLDS.com

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