When does the anger go away?

Public forum for those seeking support for their experience in the LDS Church.
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Heber13
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Re: When does the anger go away?

Post by Heber13 » 01 Jun 2010, 13:21

SilentDawning wrote:Also, I would try to deal with comments like "God allowed these people to suffer so that we could have a legacy of faith." by trying to adopt the perspective of the person who said it. He probably was trying to inspire people, bring meaning to the handcart company's suffering, etcetera, and his intentions were probably good, just misdirected. He doesn't KNOW specficially that God had that purpose in mind for their suffering, he's just speculating, so don't accept what he said as necessarily inspired or doctrincal. I would simply reject the idea as inconsistent with my current schema of God, and try not to dwell on it.
Well said, SD. That is what I try to do as well, look at what the intent was of the person delivering the message and try to remember we are all volunteers trying to help teach and inspire each other...and sometimes it doesn't work right. I am sure I have failed in expressing ideas that I thought would be good...but ended up not really being correct. We all make mistakes, and that is part of learning. I think that is one of the critical elements of church, and why God wants us to interact with each other at church rather than teach us truth on an island...it is in the process of "trying" to inspire and find truth that we sometimes stumble across it...other times we just stumble, laugh it off, and move on.

I was just reading this article this weekend from BYU Speeches of 1981 where Noel Reynolds talks of "Reason and Revelation", in which he warns:
The first problem I would like to mention may be a simple hazard of youth, though I suspect it is more a problem of our times. We are observing a widespread difficulty in distinguishing between sentimentalism and true spiritual experiences. Too much of the literature used, seen, and quoted in the Church today is just sentimental trash which is designed to pull our heartstrings or moisten our eyes, but it is not born of true spiritual experience. The tendency of our youth to use sentimental stories in Church talks creates a culture of spiritual misunderstanding in which thinking and learning are discouraged.
...
In closing, I plead with you not to be misled by those who would have you believe that spirituality is simply an emotional state. Seek to prepare yourselves that you can approach the Lord with a clear and open mind and that you might be able to understand and follow his word when you receive it."
To me, this means that too many of our youth classes focus on the emotional feelings that youth respond to in the short term, but not the true spirituality that impacts their mind and soul for years to come. When I witness this with my kids attending firesides, I use interview times with them afterwards to express my feelings about the subject.

I think there will come a day when the kids grow up and think to themselves, "I was always taught that about the handcart companies...and it never did make sense to me. I wish someone would have explained it better to me when I was young." However, it doesn't benefit me or my kids to bash the teachers who are trying their best...I am able to just keep it in perspective with their intent...but provide correction to my kids that I think may be necessary.

The fact you say these comments bothered you is evidence to me you are older and more mature now that you can think for yourself and recognize what doesn't sound right to you and your spirit. That is one way, I think, the Spirit can teach you even when the teacher is off-base. Regardless of what you hear at church that is presented as "Truth"...I think you are there to figure out what is truth to you, and what is not truth and why you feel it is not truth (see my Luke and Obi dialogue quoted below in my signature line :) ). Going through that exercise during church strengthens you and your ability to discern spiritually.

And despite it all...can you continue to hold charity in your heart? That is our test.

BTW...I don't think I went through Stage 4 for 10+ years, although I think I slip back and forth, in and out of it, from time to time. I think the timelines are very different for everyone...not that one is "better", just that we have unique journeys that we pass through. So your stage 4 anger may be 10 years, may be shorter, or may be longer. How is that for a vague answer?? :?
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

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cwald
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Re: When does the anger go away?

Post by cwald » 01 Jun 2010, 15:21

Heber13 wrote:The fact you say these comments bothered you is evidence to me you are older and more mature now that you can think for yourself and recognize what doesn't sound right to you and your spirit. That is one way, I think, the Spirit can teach you even when the teacher is off-base. Regardless of what you hear at church that is presented as "Truth"...I think you are there to figure out what is truth to you, and what is not truth and why you feel it is not truth (see my Luke and Obi dialogue quoted below in my signature line :) ). Going through that exercise during church strengthens you and your ability to discern spiritually.
That is good. Easily understood explanation.

PS - I love the quote.
  Jesus gave us the gospel, but Satan invented church. It takes serious evil to formalize faith into something tedious and then pile guilt on anyone who doesn't participate enthusiastically. - Robert Kirby

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canadiangirl
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Re: When does the anger go away?

Post by canadiangirl » 01 Jun 2010, 22:29

Thank you to all who have responded. I feel so blessed to have found this group.

I really appreciated Heber13's comments about debriefing with the children after. My husband and I differ on just how much we should share with our children regarding our thoughts and questions about church matters. My husband feels that our children should be left to figure these things out for themselves on their own timeline and I feel as Heber has expressed that I would have liked to have been made aware of other ways of seeing things as a youth and perhaps have avoided a lot of the struggle I am now experiencing. (This brings up the question of whether or not Stage 4 is avoidable or rather helped along by parents who share their journey through it.)

I also appreciated the quote from the BYU speech. It articulated my feelings exactly. I really did feel that a lot of the fireside was (with the best of intentions, and I really mean that) used to create emotions within the youth that they would interpret as the spirit. I would say EFY would fall into the same category. I remember my first EFY where the story "I'll build you a rainbow" was presented. I'm not sure if any of you are familiar with the story but basically it is the story of an older sister who yells at her little brother for getting into her makeup and then later returns from school to find out that her brother has died. (If I remember correctly, I was only 12) I cried and cried that day, thinking of my family and how mean I was to them. (I'm the oldest) Today it feels like a big guilt trip. Actually most things I experience today within the church feel like massive manipulation. Just my view of the world at the moment I suppose.

The advice to try and see the words from the speakers perspective is wise I think. I'll work on that.

Thanks again.

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Heber13
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Re: When does the anger go away?

Post by Heber13 » 02 Jun 2010, 09:53

canadiangirl wrote:My husband and I differ on just how much we should share with our children regarding our thoughts and questions about church matters. My husband feels that our children should be left to figure these things out for themselves on their own timeline and I feel as Heber has expressed that I would have liked to have been made aware of other ways of seeing things as a youth and perhaps have avoided a lot of the struggle I am now experiencing.
Just a follow-up thought...I have found I don't need to get nit-picky and share with my kids every single thing I disagree with or what drives me bonkers at church. So perhaps there are some things that aren't critical that they can figure out for themselves later in life.

However, I pick the ones that they seem to raise to me and think about, and use them as examples of how they need to seek these things out for themselves...and that they might not even agree with mom and dad. The point is, they need to learn while growing up to question things, study them out, pray about them, and be honest with their feelings.

This is done in various degrees with my kids depending on their age and maturity level.

They don't need to know all the details (that is a lifetime of learning), they just need to know the tools to use and perhaps some examples from the parents of things they might not be taught in church. That way, whenever they come across things, it is less about "Mom, you didn't teach me that" and more about "I can figure out for myself what I believe on that subject".
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

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Brian Johnston
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Re: When does the anger go away?

Post by Brian Johnston » 02 Jun 2010, 11:56

I agree with Rick and Tom, at least that is the way it works for me. Everyone else gave great answers too, and I couldn't agree more about being blessed with sharing the diverse company of people here.

I don't mean this in a flip way, but we are angry as long as we want to be angry. The cure is to let go of that sense of codependency and the need for others to see things the way we do. When we see people expressing themselves within the specific context of their own personal experience of their life, a lot of these things make more sense. That doesn't mean with agree or see thing the same. Even more important is NOT needing validation from other people to be truly comfortable and happy with ourselves.

It's OK for someone else to make different meaning out of the martin handcart company disaster, even thinking that the story of that event helps them have faith and determination. That's meaning for them. People create meaning out of stories that suits their needs. Looking back from our view now, it seriously looks like a bad decision making. Maybe they prayed about it too. You could just as easily and logically make meaning to inform you that dangerous decisions like that should not be based on spiritual feelings. That's valid too.

On the topic of children and programming, have honest discussions with your children. I am very proud of my children who range from 8 to 18 years old. They are just amazing to listen to, and are very capable of critical thinking. They tear everything apart and put it back together. In fact it's ironic to watch because they turn the same skills on my wife and I to disagree with "programming" of them as parents. The older ones are more than happy to point out our flaws and tell us how to fix them. And I literally say "go ahead, power to you, there's plenty in the world that needs fixing."
"It's strange to be here. The mystery never leaves you alone." -John O'Donohue, Anam Cara, speaking of experiencing life.

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hawkgrrrl
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Re: When does the anger go away?

Post by hawkgrrrl » 02 Jun 2010, 12:26

Sometimes people say ridiculous things in meetings
That is it in a nutshell to me. And what is ridiculous can be laughed at or shrugged off. The things some people find comforting are just loony! No point getting upset about other people's fears, feelings, worldviews and whatever. You're not required to agree. Life is too short to harbor negative emotions which only hurt you and make you feel ill.

Now, if someone says something that you feel is truly damaging to other people, the reputation of the group (the church), or whatever, then my approach is to point out the flawed logic and to dismiss the idea on that basis. But most people's stray comments don't require any correction. 50% of the congregation are probably not listening anyway. :lol:

LaLaLove
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Re: When does the anger go away?

Post by LaLaLove » 02 Jun 2010, 14:32

Well if it is any help I can offer you my story on anger relief. I stopped attending church..definitely stopped watching GC. The garments came off not long after that. I've always been a free spirit-you have no control over me-type of person so for me I had to feel free (or at least trick myself into feeling that way for the time being). I simply couldn't find freedom in the church system. Fast forward a few months and I still don't participate in church, wear garments, or watch GC but more importantly my heart is where it should be and the anger has for the most part vanished.

Much of my journey has been supported by my husband (who is slightly TBM-Although he has somewhat shifted to the dark side recently) which has made my life a million times easier.

Now that I've taken a ginormous step back I feel like I can see the big picture now. I understand why my TBM in-laws are upset with some of their son's choices and I'm able to remind him of what they believe and to be patient and respectful. I look at some of the teachings I don't agree with now as seeming silly or black and white and let it go.I don't take it personally anymore. I'm not at some higher level of intelligence or whatever .. I just don't understand many teachings anymore, they don't make sense. My anger went away when I realized that there was nothing wrong with me - that I didn't need to be fixed and that I was perfectly happy with my present feelings.

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Heber13
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Re: When does the anger go away?

Post by Heber13 » 02 Jun 2010, 14:38

LaLaLove wrote:My anger went away when I realized that there was nothing wrong with me - that I didn't need to be fixed and that I was perfectly happy with my present feelings.
I like this part. Well said.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

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cwald
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Re: When does the anger go away?

Post by cwald » 02 Jun 2010, 20:54

LaLaLove wrote:My anger went away when I realized that there was nothing wrong with me - that I didn't need to be fixed and that I was perfectly happy with my present feelings.
Nice.
  Jesus gave us the gospel, but Satan invented church. It takes serious evil to formalize faith into something tedious and then pile guilt on anyone who doesn't participate enthusiastically. - Robert Kirby

truthordare
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Re: When does the anger go away?

Post by truthordare » 02 Jun 2010, 20:57

Tom Haws wrote:I think the anger goes away when you just get tired of it, so, so tired, and you start to just let go.

Tom
I agree with you. There is another piece for me. When I realized I am not my anger, but my anger was what was presenting and I did not like that.
Leap and a net will appear.

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