Any advice on coming out to girlfriend?

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Orson
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Re: Any advice on coming out to girlfriend?

Post by Orson »

Ray, I have to say I agree with your points completely - for relationships where the lifetime commitment has already been made. For someone like me, married with children, your words are golden. I only wish more disaffected could find the strength within themselves to fight in such a way for their marriage.

I also agree with the others, there is a right way and a wrong way to go into marriage. I think going in with the idea that "I am sacrificing for you more than you will ever know" will in 99% of the cases lead to trouble and eventual resentment. The wife has no chance to "level the playing field" or begin to compensate for something that she is completely unaware of.

I still believe in the ideal of 100% openness for couples entering marriage, and I believe they can and should believe they are being that open at the time -- with sensitivity, love, and used sparingly of course!
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I first found faith, and thought I had all truth. I then discovered doubt, and claimed a more accurate truth. Now I’ve greeted paradox and a deeper truth than I have ever known.
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godlives
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Re: Any advice on coming out to girlfriend?

Post by godlives »

I would like to add that you should tell her how you feel, with LOVE. It may challenge your relationship but the only way, IMO, to have a relationship that will last is to be open and honest with each other. There are 5 billion people on the planet, why not be sure that she is the one that you can share everything with.
Elder Dieter Uchtdorf has counseled that
“...In the scriptures you will rarely discover a revelation that didn’t come in response to a question…. Inquiry is the birthplace of testimony. “Some might feel embarrassed or unworthy because they have searching questions regarding the gospel, but they needn’t feel that way. Asking questions isn’t a sign of weakness. It’s a precursor of growth.”
Gail
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Re: Any advice on coming out to girlfriend?

Post by Gail »

You have gotten some great advice here. I would like to add a few things.

Love her enough to want her to have all the info she needs about you to make a wise decision about marriage.

I think it may be easy to slip into trying to convince her of what you believe. Remember if you are right for each other you will have a life time to talk about these subjects - whatever she believes. Don’t defend your beliefs; validate the beliefs she shares with you and work to understand her feelings about what you are sharing. You have had a long time to take in the changes with in yourself. Give her the time and understanding to adjust to her new understanding of you.

If you are clear and loving up front she may be shocked and take time, but I think she will be more likely to weigh it out fairly and come back to you. If you give it to her piecemeal she could become resentful and leave you later. If you get it out now it is likely if she decides to stay with you it will be for good.
scotty
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Re: Any advice on coming out to girlfriend?

Post by scotty »

Hey everyone, thanks so much for all of the great advice. You've definitely given me lots to think about going into this.

Something interesting happened last night. It had only been a few hours after I made my first post on this topic and I was over at GF's after work. She's been sick so we were just relaxing and she mentioned that she had come across a blog post from one of her old friends in high school. GF wanted me to read the post and tell her what I thought. Believe it or not, this post was about her friend's spiritual journey and how this girl had left the church for a while and then came back, but as a skeptic who still didn't agree with the church on many issues. The friend mentioned that she had read some anti-mormon literature online and talked about a few of the things she had learned. After reading through, I agreed with some of her points (the girl mentioned a couple of things in church history which don't sit well with me and also talked about how she dislikes the church calling itself "the one true church"). However, she also blamed her hypocritical roommates and bishop as reasons for her disbelief in the church.

I finished the post and decided to feel things out with GF. I asked her, "why did you want me to read that?" I was secretly hoping that she might say something about how she had been having similar concerns and wanted to talk about it. However she said "I just think she's stupid for writing a post like that. She obviously hasn't really thought things through since she's letting the behavior of other people drive her from the church." She didn't mention anything about the historical/doctrinal points. I pointed these out and she just said "well, of course that's going to be an issue when she gets information from a biased source (referring to the "anti-mormon" sites). You can't trust anything like that." I just sighed and decided to let it go. (We were both tired and it didn't feel like the right time to bring up my true feelings about the church, as she was already defensive). I came home and read some of your comments about how hard it is to go into marriage pretending to be something you're not. After that conversation, I couldn't agree more.

We're going out of town next week and should have some time alone. I think I'll have a talk with her then. I'm not looking forward to it, but everyone's comments here have made me understand that it's really necessary. I just don't want to hurt her more than I have to. Wish me luck.
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Orson
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Re: Any advice on coming out to girlfriend?

Post by Orson »

Hi Scotty,

If I could give my personal opinion on a possibly less-offensive way to approach the subject, I would recommend using the friends blog post as an example of something that is fairly wide-spread in the church today. And that something deals with:

Expectations

Members everywhere are finding historical items and pieces of “doctrine” (as supposed that may or may not be doctrine) that don’t sit well with their personally held expectations. This is how I have come to see the process of disaffection. I think this approach is the best one to take because it doesn’t speak in terms of truthfulness or other possibly offensive labels.

The thing that really matters is it can be extremely painful to realize that your personal expectations do not square with reality. When faith is involved I think it can be much like someone losing a child. Nobody expects to outlive their own child, but it’s not just that expectation that makes the experience crushing. It’s the fact that the child’s life is so intertwined with the parents life. I think it’s similar with a person’s faith, and can be similarly painful.

There are two or three excellent faithful sources that point to disaffection in a similar light. The first is a FAIR paper written by former assistant church historian Davis Bitton: “I don’t Have a Testimony of the History of the Church” In it he says the problem isn’t with the history, the problem is with the expectations.

http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences ... hurch.html

Another is the introduction to Richard Bushman’s 2008 summer seminar “Joseph Smith and his Critics”

http://www.lifeongoldplates.com/2008/08 ... smith.html

In it Bushman acknowledges that some truthful historical information can catch members off guard and lead to problems.

From this vantage point you can discuss what things you are having problems with, and hopefully it will go better when it doesn’t look like you’re all alone and hiding the “true source” of your problems (some other motive that would give you a reason to want the church "false" and lead you to “trust” anti- sources)

It’s still a very rocky road, and your willingness to look at other "faithful" perspectives will help a great deal.

Good luck! And please please don’t try in any way to “convert” her to your viewpoint, it will only backfire – and down the road it will be a regret. Just take it softly from your personally held expectations contrasting against what “realities” can be solidly verified (without trying to expose nasty details). I know it’s a fine line.

Keep us updated!
My avatar - both physical and spiritual.

I first found faith, and thought I had all truth. I then discovered doubt, and claimed a more accurate truth. Now I’ve greeted paradox and a deeper truth than I have ever known.
swimordie
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Re: Any advice on coming out to girlfriend?

Post by swimordie »

All fantastic advice...

I especially liked what Ray said (not sure about the delivery). This journey is about you. It's not about her. If you're being open and honest, you will probably be saying "I'm just not sure", "I don't know right now", "I just don't feel that way". You don't have to convince her intellectually that you're making intellectual decisions. Your thought processes will never match hers.

Trying to seek validation from her is too dangerous. It's a life-long cycle that leads to life-long internal anguish and emotional brokenness. Trust me, I have two parents and two in-laws who are exhibit 1 and 1A.

You take care of you. She can take care of herself. If taking care of herself means she can't be with you... so be it. I think if you demonstrate healthy emotional boundaries by not reacting to her reactions, she will feel the calming influence of ambiguity. Certainty comes from fear. So, if you attempt to challenge her certainty, it becomes fight-or-flight: both bad options.

Based on your comments, it sounds like you've simply become open to lots of possibilities: you've let go of certainty. So, play fair. You're uncertain about the "truth", let her be certain about the "truth". There's nothing wrong with not knowing. It's not a character defect. It's a part of life. If you have the patience and inclination, study thoroughly Fowler's stages of faith as a reference to what you're going through. And, study co-dependency as a reference for how you should best approach any relationship, especially a marital one.
Perfectionism hasn't served me. I think I am done with it. -Poppyseed
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HiJolly
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Re: Any advice on coming out to girlfriend?

Post by HiJolly »

Old-Timer wrote:One of the most reviled quotes of modern Mormonism on anti-sites and group discussion boards for disaffected members is Elder Packer's about not all truth being useful. (my paraphrase) I understand the angst that causes among those who want everything to be black-and-white, but it is absolutely true and wise in many situations - and what you describe is one of those times.

I'm probably beating a dead horse, but I really wish everyone understood that President Packer was paraphrasing Immanuel Kant, the world-renowned philosopher. At the same time he's questioning intellectuals, which I just can't think as purely coincidental...

"Many things can be true and yet harmful to man. Not all truth is useful."
-- Immanuel Kant
(p.43 Lectures on Logic, (translated by J. Michael Young))

HiJolly
Men are not moved by events but by their interpretations.
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Orson
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Re: Any advice on coming out to girlfriend?

Post by Orson »

Thank you HiJolly! I never knew that - learned something today!

Let me apologize as I derail… but it has always struck me that all truth may not be useful for any singular purpose or agenda. But, as I hold God, or at least the qualities of God, to be the author of all truth (I think LDS.org has a quote to the same effect) it appears to my sensibilities that there is probably some valuable lesson in all forms of truth.

Where may I be going wrong with that line of thought? (I’m looking for points that I may be missing.)

In this case we may assume, and we may be right, that the GF has no interest or perhaps not the ability to digest some of the “information” related to Scotty’s true thought process. Shouldn’t she have some right to decide for herself what she wants to know and what she wants to ignore about him?

Is it possible to inhibit another person's agency by exercising some control over the "truths" that reach them? I realize this is a complex and sticky subject.

Just asking. :?
My avatar - both physical and spiritual.

I first found faith, and thought I had all truth. I then discovered doubt, and claimed a more accurate truth. Now I’ve greeted paradox and a deeper truth than I have ever known.
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Heber13
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Re: Any advice on coming out to girlfriend?

Post by Heber13 »

I like Swim's advice:
swimordie wrote:So, play fair. You're uncertain about the "truth", let her be certain about the "truth". There's nothing wrong with not knowing. It's not a character defect. It's a part of life.
On a practical note, I think most TBMs have expectations that need to be considered, and is the purpose of courting someone before committing to a major thing, like marriage. Make sure you understand her expectations in life and if you can meet those for her (in church matters or non-church matters).

Be yourself and let her see yourself (even if you are trying to show your best self for her). If you have doubts or skip church periodically, does that bother her? If you read something about the church that makes you wonder, does she have advice for you on it?

There will always be things you inevitably find out about your spouse after you get married, and there are no guarantees you or your partner don't change after marriage. So find out as much as you can before marriage.

But you should be able to establish if you two have the capacity to work through trials and situations together and still love each other. That requires honesty, integrity, and communication.

Regardless if the issues are faith in the church, money management, sex and children, or chores around the house...relationships are built on how you openly address issues and trust each other you can come to a shared understanding of things. Especially for TBMs, religion carries an eternal ramification on the entire family unit...so it is not a small matter to brush aside.

Do not bury this. Nor do I think you just give up on the relationship over it. Face the facts, test the relationship, and see where it takes you.

That's advice from an old 40 yr old with 4 kids...so take it for what its worth. ;)
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."
Cnsl1
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Re: Any advice on coming out to girlfriend?

Post by Cnsl1 »

This is an interesting question. Scotty, I think fortune or God or someone or something smiled on you in the form of GF's old high school friend.

First, if you are accurate in the retelling of the incident, your GF did NOT answer your question, ("Why did you want me to read that?"). If she really didn't answer the question, WHY didn't she answer the question?

One possibility is that she's been concerned about your TBM status or committment to the church, since you've probably already said some things that make her wonder, and showing you the blog post may have been designed to gauge your reaction or show you how silly it is to question or wonder. However, if that was the case, she sure didn't give you much of a chance to express opinions and slamed that door pretty certainly. So, if she does suspect and is concerned, she really doesn't want to know the answer. If that's the case, she might not be the girl you'd be happy with for years on end.

Another possibility as to why she didn't answer the question is that she has the same or similar concerns as her old HS friend and wanted some reassurance from you that all is okay in the world. If that's the case, she obviously didn't give you time to answer at that moment, but would probably be receptive to an open and honest conversation.

Finally, maybe she really didn't have a clear reason of sharing the friend's post with you, other than you're her BF and you two share stuff like friends do. If that's the case, thank heaven for an opportunity to discuss these things.

I think, whatever the answer to your unanswered question, you now have a better opportunity to discuss some things that you really want to discuss with her. I agree with most everyone that it's not a good idea to dump all the questionable church history on her lap at once, but I also feel that it's a terrible idea to go into a marriage with doubts about who your partner is. Obviously, no one knows for sure, going into marriage, whether or not it's going to work out, whether or not you're going to be deliriously happy, or whether or not you're going to be very compatible for years on end, but what you want to be damned sure about is that you know who you are marrying and that you still WANT to do it.

I realize you're not even engaged at this point, but there is an obvious possibility. If it does progress to that point, I think any pre-marriage counselor would tell you that you have to be honest with yourself and with her. Realize that your ideas and thoughts on this subject will likely still change somewhat as you continue to age... change is inevitable, as they say, though obviously expecting or waiting for someone else to change isn't productive. Thanks to the old HS friend, the door to this discussion has been opened a little bit. If GF only slams that door when you attempt to talk about it, then I say, buddy, you're a fool to marry her for more reasons than one (but hey, maybe she's so wonderful in other ways it would still be worth it). If she's open to conversation and will consider other opinions and respect yours, then you've got a keeper and would probably be a fool to let her go (though, she might let you go, and there's nothing you can do about that).

You'll have to talk about this and you know it. You obviously don't want to hurt her, but avoiding the issue and continuing to develop the relationship toward marriage could potentially hurt her much worse later. I completely agree with others who have cautioned you not to try and "convert" her to your new way of thinking, or your "NOMism". Just open up your heart and thoughts to her, like you've probably been doing as the relationship has developed. Sharing can be scary business because you might be out a GF the next day. But, it might also bring you closer than you've ever been before.
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