Take Your Vitamin Pills, Get Some Rest...

Public forum for those seeking support for their experience in the LDS Church.
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QuestionAbound
Posts: 250
Joined: 13 May 2013, 17:57

Take Your Vitamin Pills, Get Some Rest...

Post by QuestionAbound » 01 Dec 2019, 10:08

When I first heard those words, I had high hopes.
Maybe I was too naive, but I was expecting new doctrinal revelation. And maybe that is still coming, but as of now...

We have seen several administrative changes.

I LOVE the temple changes, even though I no longer attend the temple and have no plans to in the near future. I would like to see a few more changes in the temple...let the wives know the husband's new name, do away with polygamy in the temple, and shorten the endowment session (by a lot).

The other changes (2 hour church, ministering, Youth program, etc) are fun, but ...

I am left feeling empty.

Am I alone in feeling like those changes are sort of "fluff" and not much for substance?
Don't get me wrong. Change can be a very positive thing and I'm grateful for what could be progress.

I am not sure that I feel like those changes were from revelation. They don't "feel" like revealed truths.

And so now I am struggling more with the Church organization. I feel like there isn't good depth to it, but I can't pinpoint where I feel like that's lacking.
Sunday teachings depend largely on the teacher and class, so I can't blame a bum lesson on the Church.
Weekly activities depend on the leaders, so again, not the Church's fault if they are failures.

And of course I can't tell my bishop husband who has no clue this forum even exists, much less that I am a member of it.
And I feel guilty b/c I know he's probably doing the best he can with the ward and the depth we feel on Sundays/Wednesdays.

And if I were to complain, I am afraid that I'd be labeled as a doubter and someone who didn't take her vitamin pills...like maybe I was not prepared for the revealed changes and was weeded out like the tares. Scare tactic? I suppose.
I don't want to be wrong about this.

Yes, on some level I want it all to be true and perfect and, yes, I do think literally.

So, is it just me?
Am I just lacking faith?
Am I just lacking the insight to see that these changes are necessary for further light and knowledge?

Roy
Posts: 5809
Joined: 07 Oct 2010, 14:16
Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: Take Your Vitamin Pills, Get Some Rest...

Post by Roy » 01 Dec 2019, 14:31

1) I like that with all the changes they may be willing to discontinue things that just are not working sooner. I see the POX and its retraction as evidence of this.
2) I feel like the changes to the temple ceremonies are huge with subtle doctrinal implications. I wish we were allowed to talk about them in church.
3) It is significant that women (and baptized children) are able to act as witnesses for ordinances they have already received for themselves. I have already known mothers to act as a witness for their child's baptism. This is meaningful even if administrative. (similarly it would not require a doctrinal change for YW to pass the sacrament. It is only policy that prevents this.)

Revelation. Sometimes I feel that the word revelation is used to make church members comply with something they do not want to do. It presents a dichotomy - either get with the program or stand against the brethren and God. Considering this background, I am happy the Revelation word is not used more.
QuestionAbound wrote:
01 Dec 2019, 10:08
And so now I am struggling more with the Church organization. I feel like there isn't good depth to it, but I can't pinpoint where I feel like that's lacking.
Sunday teachings depend largely on the teacher and class, so I can't blame a bum lesson on the Church.
Weekly activities depend on the leaders, so again, not the Church's fault if they are failures.
The church can be a lackluster experience in part because of its local leadership of conscripted volunteers. you said it yourself, your husband is doing the best he can in his spare time with minimal training.
QuestionAbound wrote:
01 Dec 2019, 10:08
Yes, on some level I want it all to be true and perfect and, yes, I do think literally.

There are ways to nuance it. I believe that they generally involve God working through the church but not necessarily running the church. Maybe God gives the church the authority for saving ordinances and let's us figure out the rest ourselves. Maybe God let's us (the LDS church or humanity generally) figure it out for ourselves but gives us nudges every so often in the right direction. Maybe God doesn't care so much about our doctrine but wants us to love, forgive, and support one another and is willing to endorse any organization to the degree that they help us to accomplish this goal.
QuestionAbound wrote:
01 Dec 2019, 10:08
So, is it just me?
Am I just lacking faith?
Am I just lacking the insight to see that these changes are necessary for further light and knowledge?
You are not alone.
Faith is a gift that is not given to all and perhaps is withheld from some of us during certain seasons. I personally can only be consistent with my own worldview while having the humility to acknowledge that my worldview does not necessarily comprehend or encompass the reality of others. IOW, My reality does not have to be your reality and that is ok.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

AmyJ
Posts: 927
Joined: 27 Jul 2017, 05:50

Re: Take Your Vitamin Pills, Get Some Rest...

Post by AmyJ » 02 Dec 2019, 06:42

Hi,
I feel alone a lot a church (ironically, I am more connected with relationships to people then I used to be).

For me, it's an intellectual disconnect - there are core tenets that others hold as foundation, unchallenged beliefs that for me are non-entities or I theorize are the opposite of what is being taught. I remind myself that I changed, the collective they did not. It's minimally helpful.

I come here a lot, which helps.

I speak up in church a little. For example, I sat in with my daughter's 10 year old class on Peter this Sunday and the lesson diverged into "Persecution". Though not the teacher, I mentioned that part of the reason the Non-Christian leaders acted as they did was because for most societies, religion and politics were linked - so the Non-Christians didn't know how to take the Christians taking the religious stands they were taking and thought that the Christians were committing treason and breaking all kinds of laws.

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DarkJedi
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Re: Take Your Vitamin Pills, Get Some Rest...

Post by DarkJedi » 02 Dec 2019, 11:00

Two hour church or three hour church left me feeling empty and unfulfilled either way. I think there's more to the idea of "home centered, church supported" than most of us recognize (and many don't want to recognize).
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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mom3
Posts: 4004
Joined: 02 Apr 2011, 14:11

Re: Take Your Vitamin Pills, Get Some Rest...

Post by mom3 » 03 Dec 2019, 15:33

I am left feeling empty.

Am I alone in feeling like those changes are sort of "fluff" and not much for substance?
My mom, who isn't having a faith crisis/transition, is going down that road big time. I notice her finding lots of reasons to leave after Sacrament Meeting. She feels hurt that prior VT/HT have now just stopped coming by. In her words, "Were the faking it before?"

Her cultural connections are also slipping away. She misses some of the activities and social events that supported her church experience.

The lack of purpose in callings is driving her crazy. Callings used to be a vital connection to God. Kind of like a gold star. Even if you were a primary teacher, you counted. Now it's full of shuffling and changes.

It's not just you.

And it is almost all administrative. Spirituality is dangling behind.

For me it's an invitation to build my own plan. No guilt attached.

I don't have a fully believing Bishop husband. That would make it challenging. But it's not impossible. Start reading Chieko Okazaki. Leave the books lying around. It might intrigue him. She is a safe space to navigate other ways of thinking. Start a collection of Mormon quotes that serve your spiritual point of view. Begin using them in comments and such. Again - your served and can help others. You never know who else is in the same boat.
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

Roy
Posts: 5809
Joined: 07 Oct 2010, 14:16
Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: Take Your Vitamin Pills, Get Some Rest...

Post by Roy » 04 Dec 2019, 11:26

mom3 wrote:
03 Dec 2019, 15:33
The lack of purpose in callings is driving her crazy. Callings used to be a vital connection to God. Kind of like a gold star. Even if you were a primary teacher, you counted. Now it's full of shuffling and changes.
I'm interested to hear more about this. Is this related to certain callings being phased out (YM president and scout leaders) or to some other form of shuffling and changes. As a scout leader myself and a parent of youth I tend to feel this. We only have a few more weeks in the scouting program. There is no point in working towards advancements. It basically turns into weekly activity and free babysitting hour.

With my kids, it is similar. The new youth program is not yet implemented so they are just biding time - which too often means playing basketball for Wednesday night activity.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

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mom3
Posts: 4004
Joined: 02 Apr 2011, 14:11

Re: Take Your Vitamin Pills, Get Some Rest...

Post by mom3 » 04 Dec 2019, 11:51

I'm interested to hear more about this. Is this related to certain callings being phased out (YM president and scout leaders) or to some other form of shuffling and changes. As a scout leader myself and a parent of youth I tend to feel this. We only have a few more weeks in the scouting program. There is no point in working towards advancements. It basically turns into weekly activity and free babysitting hour.

With my kids, it is similar. The new youth program is not yet implemented so they are just biding time - which too often means playing basketball for Wednesday night activity.
On the nose.

My parents have/had a very robust ward. Super friendly. Gracious. Generous. Over the years as the church has eliminated callings, the activities and service projects have declined in their ward. One example.

Their ward used to have an annual gratitude dinner around the holidays. It was always beautiful. Something to take friends to. Delicious food. Decorated hall. A time for reflection on blessings and joy. When the church quit having the Ward Activities committee's, events like this took a slide. Yes it was still held, but it was passed off to an auxiliary to chair it. Well, auxiliary's are busy. So it's now a potluck with the basic table and chairs. My mom said if she has to fix the food at home, why go. Less people have been attending over the years for the same reason.

The same is true for all the organizations. They are stagnating.

For Faith Crisis people it's kind of nice. Not everyone needs a calling, so you can easily opt out or barely do and no one flinches. However, the draw and appeal to participate is also falling. If I was a teenager, I could play basketball at home with my friends.

I realize "The Gospel" is not about organized religion. But we have this broken issue. On the one hand there is talk of strengthening the youth, the next generation, etc. So our answer is to eliminate a complete leadership team? Create a bland youth program. And hand it to the busiest man in the ward?

My mom even asked if I thought this was the "weeding out season". I told her no. Not by a long shot.

She can't figure out why any of these changes are happening. To be honest, me either.
"I stayed because it was God and Jesus Christ that I wanted to follow and be like, not individual human beings." Chieko Okazaki Dialogue interview

"I am coming to envision a new persona for the Church as humble followers of Jesus Christ....Joseph and his early followers came forth with lots of triumphalist rhetoric, but I think we need a new voice, one of humility, friendship and service. We should teach people to believe in God because it will soften their hearts and make them more willing to serve." - Richard Bushman

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SamBee
Posts: 5418
Joined: 14 Mar 2010, 04:55

Re: Take Your Vitamin Pills, Get Some Rest...

Post by SamBee » 04 Dec 2019, 18:57

QuestionAbound wrote:
01 Dec 2019, 10:08
and shorten the endowment session (by a lot).
Kind of. When I was endowed the sessions were a lot shorter, and then they made them longer. The current endowment is still longer than the ones I did less than ten years ago.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

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