YSA Bishops Sowing Despair

Public forum for those seeking support for their experience in the LDS Church.
Curt Sunshine
Site Admin
Posts: 15318
Joined: 21 Oct 2008, 20:24

Re: YSA Bishops Sowing Despair

Post by Curt Sunshine » 10 Aug 2017, 10:35

Leadership roulette is a real thing at BYU - but there are plenty of excellent Bishops there, as well.

Just saying. :D
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

User avatar
Gerald
Posts: 331
Joined: 29 Sep 2011, 04:57

Re: YSA Bishops Sowing Despair

Post by Gerald » 10 Aug 2017, 10:37

Also realize that they are scratching the bottom of the barrel for bishops at BYU. I’ve heard from my relatives that live in the area that they are always looking for Bishops, and any male MP holder that can walk and talk and wears a white shirt to church will eventually get called as a bishop for 3 years. So in a regular stake the SP can normally choose a Bishop with some semblance decorum. Chances of getting a bishop with bad bedside manners (pun intended) are much higher in a YSA ward in Provo/Orem.
This is a really good point. My experience with bishops has been overwhelmingly positive but I wouldn't say it's been the case for my children. One of my daughters attended a ward that had an INCREDIBLE bishop. He was so positive and uplifting and his wife equally so. When my daughter got married, she invited him and his wife to the sealing. And yet this same daughter had another bishop who, when she went in to discuss an issue, didn't even realize she was in his ward. Both were YSA wards. I think staffing is a huge issue in most areas of the Church. I'm sorry that Biologist's girlfriend didn't get a more compassionate leader. There's some great people out there and there are some people who simply should not be given leadership responsibilities.
So through the dusk of dead, blank-legended And unremunerative years we search to get where life begins, and still we groan because we do not find the living spark where no spark ever was; and thus we die, still searching, like poor old astronomers who totter off to bed and go to sleep, to dream of untriangulated stars.
---Edwin Arlington Robinson---

User avatar
LookingHard
Posts: 2576
Joined: 20 Oct 2014, 12:11

Re: YSA Bishops Sowing Despair

Post by LookingHard » 10 Aug 2017, 14:29

Curt Sunshine wrote:
10 Aug 2017, 10:35
Leadership roulette is a real thing at BYU - but there are plenty of excellent Bishops there, as well.

Just saying. :D
I have a kid at the Y right now and he loves his current bishop. He seems to be a different mode. He said the other week they were having a meeting in a room and someone came in from being in the foyer attending a different ward. The person said, "Can you keep it down, I can't feel the spirit with all this noise." The bishops response was something like, well you had better learn how to feel the spirit even with some noise. Just wait until you have kids and never have any peace. Then turned his back to the person that stepped in and kept driving his meeting. But at the same time he said he was very good at loving people. I guess you have to be in his ward to be loved by him. :-)

TheBiologist
Posts: 6
Joined: 26 Mar 2017, 12:39

Re: YSA Bishops Sowing Despair

Post by TheBiologist » 12 Aug 2017, 12:20

Update and Clarification.

My girl friend and I read these responses together and we are both grateful for all of your feedback. She is very aware of my unorthodox understandings of the Church. In fact, we talked about it before our first date. I don't think I was right to say she is a TBM. She was actually a little offended that I did because we both feel that the term is often used in a derogatory way on the forum, although she knows I did not mean it in that way. She shares many of my unorthodox views but I am a little more extreme. We often discuss our views together and I think that that is a healthy part of our relationship.

My girl friend had a really good experience with her YSA bishop before her mission. She had committed the same transgressions that we have with a different guy and the bishop was very loving and supportive during her meetings with him. She always left feeling better. (I understand that circumstances were a little different because she hadn't been endowed yet). It is true that there are great bishops out here. My sister had experiences with both extremes. Unfortunately, the bad bishop left her severely damaged. I feel anger which I recognize as irrational towards my current bishop because of this paradigm. I neglected to mention that our current bishop did not talk about Jesus Christ, the Atonement, love, or grace in my girl friend's interview with him. It is incomprehensible to me that a person can go to a bishop seeking help through the repentance process and never talk about Christ during the exchange

I met the bishop last night at a ward activity. I got a hair cut and shaved my beard before the activity. I figured I'd have to choose my battles. He is a brand new bishop (although he had been a family ward bishop in the past) so I hadn't talked with him before. I introduced myself to him with my girl friend at my side and we talked candidly for at least 15 minutes. I told him I'd have an appointment set with him within a week and he seemed happy to hear that. He appears to be a nice guy when he's off the judgement seat.

My views on the Law of Chastity

I have held these views since before I had the issues we are facing now. In other words, my views are not the result of my transgressions. Wordsworth found that rules of sonnet making do not in fact constrain but actually make possible poetic form. I think the LoC is founded on a similar principle. I have always and still do intend to wait until I'm married to have sex. I think most of us agree on what is classified as sin, but disagree a little more on the gravity. I believe that our transgressions up to this point, the worst of which is 'heavy petting,' is a sin inasmuch as looking on a woman to lust after her is a sin. I read an article about a psychology study done at BYU about pornography in marriage. The study found that perception of pornography addiction is more important than actual pornography use in predicting many outcomes, and that the level of religious belief was especially important in predicting negative outcomes from porn use. I believe that relationship problems which are centered around sexual transgression are more associated with unhealthy, manufactured shame than the sin itself.

Thanks again for your support. I really appreciate it.

Curt Sunshine
Site Admin
Posts: 15318
Joined: 21 Oct 2008, 20:24

Re: YSA Bishops Sowing Despair

Post by Curt Sunshine » 12 Aug 2017, 13:40

Thanks for the update.

I'm glad you were able to read the thread together and talk. That is a very healthy approach.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

User avatar
Beefster
Posts: 213
Joined: 04 Aug 2017, 18:38

Re: YSA Bishops Sowing Despair

Post by Beefster » 12 Aug 2017, 18:43

Curt Sunshine wrote:
10 Aug 2017, 10:35
Leadership roulette is a real thing at BYU - but there are plenty of excellent Bishops there, as well.
Definitely true. I got lucky with the four bishops I had in Provo, but they were not all equally good. My favorite bishop was easily the one I had for the two years immediately after my mission. His favorite topic was pornography/addiction, but he approached it in such a comfortable and loving way that nobody really seemed to be bothered by it. He really did a lot to make the kind of environment where you could feel comfortable talking about it with your roommates or him. He even addressed the fact that it affects women too. His wife also made amazing barbecued pulled pork.

I've definitely heard of the bad bishops. I worked with this one unorthodox guy at one point. He was having issues getting his ecclesiastical endorsement renewed for some dumb reason (I can't remember what it was, but it was something petty. Maybe it was because he was lazy about shaving. Maybe it was because he didn't agree with the honor code. I dunno.) and his bishop made him jump through a bunch of hoops to get it renewed. I've also heard similar horror stories along the same lines from various people.

FTSOY really should be defining what the heck heavy petting is because it sounds like any sort of prolonged rubbing anywhere on the body (is that what your girlfriend thinks it is?), when that is not the definition I got when I Googled it (erotic contact between two people involving stimulation of the genitals but stopping short of intercourse.). Basically, it's more like almost sex. [Admin Note: We have a policy against using graphic, sexual language, purely because so many different people read what is written here. We try to follow Paul's advice about not eating meat with those who don't eat meat. Therefore, some descriptions have been deleted.] If you and your GF have not done that, you have done nothing wrong.

The church really needs to stop using such vague terminology and just call a spade a spade when it comes to sexuality. :sigh:
Boys are governed by rules. Men are governed by principles.

GBSmith
Posts: 952
Joined: 24 Apr 2010, 08:51

Re: YSA Bishops Sowing Despair

Post by GBSmith » 12 Aug 2017, 20:22

It seems that people go to their bishop or branch president for two reasons, to find out if they've done something wrong and if they have to find out what to do to fix it. In the first case we seem to forget that we're capable of deciding for ourselves right and wrong and in the second I've decided that the Bp/BrP just gets in the way. Your recommend will usually be taken away and you'll be told not to take the sacrament, but how does that help? If you've confessed your sins to God, don't you need the sacrament for its ability to renew baptismal covenants and receive the help of the HG? Is the bishop able to decide if you've been forgiven? One of the first things that reformers threw out was confession to and absolution by a priest. I know a bishop doesn't absolve but the way things are set up, that's the way it seems to be. A number of years ago a friend of mine went through a years disfellowshipment for a chastity problem. At the end of the year he was asked in the council if he had felt that lifting of guilt like a person feels when they take off a heavy pack. He answered that yes he did, a year earlier when he confided to his bishop. As I look at it he spent a year being punished for something he'd been forgiven for before it all got started. He learned a lesson from that and to my knowledge hasn't been back in a bishop's office since.

User avatar
Beefster
Posts: 213
Joined: 04 Aug 2017, 18:38

Re: YSA Bishops Sowing Despair

Post by Beefster » 12 Aug 2017, 22:53

I dunno if avoiding the bishop is necessarily the right course of action in every case. Not every bishop is that black and white. At least in theory, he's there to be a love and a support to you as an arbitrator in helping you work through the repentance process. Sometimes repentance involves disciplinary action (as in the case of pre- or extramarital sex, and murder), though I will admit there's a pretty serious leadership roulette problem there because some issues are treated with wild inconsistency.

For instance, masturbation has little consistency from leader to leader when it comes to disciplinary action. There are bishops who revoke your TR, bishops who will say you can't take the sacrament, bishops who just tell you to stop doing it and move on, and there's probably just about everything in between.

I guess you should consider your bishop's personality and pray about it before taking action. If your bishop is a "Gospel of Christ" bishop rather than a "Law of Moses" bishop, you'll probably be fine confessing the sin and he'll actually be helpful. Law of Moses bishops will likely resort to more strict, and generally less helpful, action.
Boys are governed by rules. Men are governed by principles.

Roy
Posts: 4275
Joined: 07 Oct 2010, 14:16
Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: YSA Bishops Sowing Despair

Post by Roy » 13 Aug 2017, 10:27

Thank you for giving an update and I am glad that the discussion has been helpful. I also agree that reading through this thread together can foster some important conversation on topics that might not come up otherwise.

Just a small clarification. I understand TBM to mean "Traditional Believing Mormon" or Orthodox. I do not use it disparagingly.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

User avatar
SilentDawning
Posts: 6314
Joined: 09 May 2010, 19:55

Re: YSA Bishops Sowing Despair

Post by SilentDawning » 13 Aug 2017, 13:37

Roy wrote:
13 Aug 2017, 10:27
Thank you for giving an update and I am glad that the discussion has been helpful. I also agree that reading through this thread together can foster some important conversation on topics that might not come up otherwise.

Just a small clarification. I understand TBM to mean "Traditional Believing Mormon" or Orthodox. I do not use it disparagingly.
I agree. I use the term to describe someone who views the gospel in the mainstream manner taught at church.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"Stage 5 is where you no longer believe the gospel as its literally or traditionally taught. Nonetheless, you find your own way to be active and at peace within it". -- SD

The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

My introduction: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1576

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users