Plandemic, conspiracies, and faith

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Roy
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Re: Plandemic, conspiracies, and faith

Post by Roy » 20 May 2020, 11:55

“When you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change”. Often attributed to Dr. Wayne Dyer, this quote originated from Professor Max Planck, recipient of the 1918
I was thinking about the above quote in relation to conspiracy theories. Part of the reason that it is difficult to come to mutual understanding is that the things that we count as evidence are very different.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

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Heber13
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Re: Plandemic, conspiracies, and faith

Post by Heber13 » 20 May 2020, 12:12

Roy wrote:
20 May 2020, 11:55
“When you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change”. Often attributed to Dr. Wayne Dyer, this quote originated from Professor Max Planck, recipient of the 1918
I was thinking about the above quote in relation to conspiracy theories. Part of the reason that it is difficult to come to mutual understanding is that the things that we count as evidence are very different.
Yes, it becomes very difficult to even talk to conspiracy theorists...it seems the more you show any evidence to the contrary, the more they dig their heels in to defend themselves. "That's exactly what they want you to believe." ...it can be hard to even converse about anything.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

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Heber13
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Re: Plandemic, conspiracies, and faith

Post by Heber13 » 20 May 2020, 12:16

nibbler wrote:
20 May 2020, 11:27
...our conceptualization an afterlife follows a similar model to how conspiracy theories spin up. God, the afterlife, the atonement, the prosperity gospel, etc. can give their believers a sense of control and security. This is especially true when the alternative account feels threatening.
Exactly. The alternate might be there is nothing after we die...and that scares people.

I also think sometimes people use extreme alternate accounts to make their point. Like that example of families being together forever. They make it sound like without the gospel, we just have nothing in the afterlife and that is scary for all our loving relationships. But there are other non-extreme positions to "no relationships in the afterlife" that don't require temple ordinances. Those are just swept under the rug, sometimes.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

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Re: Plandemic, conspiracies, and faith

Post by Curt Sunshine » 20 May 2020, 18:58

It "helps" that the Religious Right has preached end-times apocalyptic signs of the times in divisive terms for the past 30-40 years. My and my parents generations were baptized in conspiracy theory rhetoric, and the Religious Right has invested savior-esque qualities in politicians who pander to them. It is hard to admit worshipping a false God, so believers double down on anything that bolsters their support. Much of the conspiracy theory is transparently fabricated, and supported by domestic and foreign bot farms distributing false memes at a dizzying rate, but the rhetoric reinforces the persecution complex that by now is entrenched deeply into the collective psyche. America is, collectively, a depressingly unprincipled, gullible nation. It is disheartening, to say the least.

In historical terms, the power systems are the modern equivalent of Ancient Israel demanding a king - or the ruling Jewish class at the time of Jesus maintaining their power through the support of Rome.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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hawkgrrrl
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Re: Plandemic, conspiracies, and faith

Post by hawkgrrrl » 21 May 2020, 12:08

Heber13: Yes, I did that post before the Plandemic video came out. It was kind of weird, but right before that, there were a bunch of podcasts talking about conspiracy theories, and I was seeing some things in FB and Twitter that seemed driven by conspiracy theory mindset, that knowing wink about what's REALLY going on here...followed by whack-a-doodle ideas.

The weirdest thing I learned on one of these podcasts was that there are 12 million people out there who believe that we are secretly ruled by reptilian overlord aliens. That's the plot of the popular 1980 mini-series V, for crying out loud. Science fiction =/= reality.

And just yesterday I was disappointed to see several of my childhood friends post & re-post this screed about how if you are going to download a contact tracing app on your phone, you can just unfriend them now because they don't grant permission for the government to trace them. I feel like my respect for people I have always liked is suddenly taking a hit.

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Heber13
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Re: Plandemic, conspiracies, and faith

Post by Heber13 » 21 May 2020, 20:40

It's been interesting for me to see this side of people.

It's so hard for me to grasp how people actually believe something like "reptilian alien overlords" ...and yet...I was raised to believe Bible stories and Joseph Smith as if it was fact. And I knew people who laughed at me and thought I was delusional.

It's not that different. When you believe something, even if others tell you it's not real, you can just believe they are uninformed. They are in the big and spacious building mocking, but you know the truth and must hold to the iron rod and not doubt your faith.

It's just interesting to see conspiracy theorists and dismiss them, then return to orthdox religion as if it is clearly reality.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

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nibbler
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Re: Plandemic, conspiracies, and faith

Post by nibbler » 22 May 2020, 08:28

Conspiracies go in both directions.

There's: the coronavirus is a hoax meant to take people's freedoms away and there's a microchip in the vaccine with the number 666 embedded in it so Bill Gates can... do I don't know what.

And there's: they're manipulating the numbers to hide deaths and new cases just so they can make their case for reopening and the vaccine is nothing more than a placebo to get people over their fears of returning.

I guess the question then becomes, what is the fruit of my conspiracy theory? ;)
The wound is the place where the light enters you.
— Rumi

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Heber13
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Re: Plandemic, conspiracies, and faith

Post by Heber13 » 22 May 2020, 08:49

nibbler wrote:
22 May 2020, 08:28
what is the fruit of my conspiracy theory?
Sometimes I feel it is entertainment. Occupy the mind with some fun stories. Like scouts around a campfire telling stories.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

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DevilsAdvocate
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Re: Plandemic, conspiracies, and faith

Post by DevilsAdvocate » 19 Sep 2020, 11:03

I definitely don't believe that the virus was intentionally developed and released by China or that the governments of all these different countries would all be in on some grand conspiracy at the same time or anything like that. But what I think has been fraudulent and deserves to be called a hoax about the whole thing is the level of overreaction, overhyping, shameless fear-mongering, finger-pointing, etc. by the media, many politicians and others. The truth of the matter is that over 99% of people under 65 and that are not diabetic, long-time smokers, etc. will not be killed by this virus even if they catch it in the first place. And to put things in perspective something like an average of 8 thousand Americans were already dying per day of other causes like cancer, heart disease, car accidents, etc. before this virus. So why have we singled this one thing out and treated it like the end all be all month after month as if no price is too high to pay to try to stop it compared to everything else that can kill you just as easily if not more so? Can you imagine if car accident fatalities were reported this way with a running total of the deaths for the entire country?

I think some of it is simply because it was new and unexpected so that makes it seem scarier than it really is statistically but it's almost like some people actually like counting up the deaths and seeing millions of Americans unemployed, etc. so they can try to blame it on Trump or whatever other reasons that have nothing to do with science and facts. And Trump himself has claimed the actions of his administration actually helped save millions of lives which I also think is ridiculous but I think it gives some insight into where some of these decisions were coming from. Basically it looks like some of these politicians and other decision makers had "expert" advisors telling them that millions of Americans would die without shutting practically everything we can down. And it looks like some of these early projections were based on taking numbers from Italy and/or other countries hit worst at first and trying to extrapolate that percentage by multiplying by the majority of the US population.

The obvious problem with models like this are that they didn't take into account all the people that had the virus without ever getting tested (could easily be several times the number actually confirmed). And if the lock-downs were really necessary to prevent overwhelming the health care system and millions of deaths then why didn't we see anything close to that per capita happen in Sweden and other countries that didn't do strict government lock-downs? India did one of the most strict lock-downs of all with police actually beating people for leaving their homes and what good did that do? Based on the results so far it looks like at best it only delayed the inevitable and at worst made little to no difference. It sounds like more people will actually end up dying from starvation worldwide due to the economic impact of the lock-downs than from the virus itself. I think the whole situation is kind of sad all-around; I guess politicians and others felt like they needed be seen doing something so they don't get blamed too much for "killing grandma" regardless of how effective or not these actions really were in hindsight.
Last edited by DevilsAdvocate on 26 Sep 2020, 07:37, edited 1 time in total.
"Truth is what works." - William James

Roy
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Re: Plandemic, conspiracies, and faith

Post by Roy » 21 Sep 2020, 13:17

DA You have a lot of good points. There surely can be a middle ground somewhere between business as usual and shut everything down. I believe that middle ground involves near universal mask use but I understand that saying it is one thing and doing/enforcing it is another.

Some of what you describe seems to fit with group dynamics. Similar to stock bubbles or real estate bubbles people create feedback loops that can distort reality until the distortion becomes too great to maintain and it crumbles.

I think where conspiracy theories are different is that they usually have a shadow force controlling things for the negative and deliberately hiding things from the general public.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

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