Should I feel guilty?

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Roy
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Re: Should I feel guilty?

Post by Roy » 25 Mar 2019, 12:51

The following sentence from the second link that you shared also rubbed me the wrong way:
It’s useful to remember that God doesn’t always answer our prayers by changing others but that sometimes we are changed as we reach out to the Lord.
Isn't it doctrinally correct to say that God NEVER changes others in answer to our prayers because to do so would violate the agency of another?
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dande48
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Re: Should I feel guilty?

Post by dande48 » 25 Mar 2019, 21:46

Roy wrote:
25 Mar 2019, 12:51
Isn't it doctrinally correct to say that God NEVER changes others in answer to our prayers because to do so would violate the agency of another?
There are many LDS scriptures which state that God "softened their hearts", not to mention God has been awfully persuasive with both miracles and "smitings". I'd even go so far as to say, doctrinally, trying to change others is all God does. But then that brings us back to the old topic of "does anyone really have agency, and what does that mean?" It's not a cut-and-dry doctrine at any rate.
Last edited by dande48 on 26 Mar 2019, 05:58, edited 1 time in total.
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DarkJedi
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Re: Should I feel guilty?

Post by DarkJedi » 26 Mar 2019, 04:54

dande48 wrote:
25 Mar 2019, 21:46
Roy wrote:
25 Mar 2019, 12:51
Isn't it doctrinally correct to say that God NEVER changes others in answer to our prayers because to do so would violate the agency of another?
There are many LDS scriptures which state that God "softened their hearts", not to mention God has been awfully persuasive with both miracles and "smitings". I'd even go so far as to say, doctrinally, trying to change others is all God does. But then that brings us back to the old topic of "does anyone really have angency, and what does that mean?" It's not a cut-and-dry doctrine at any rate.
Interesting point of view. As someone who leans deist (and probably unitarian) I'd say God doesn't do any of that. Of course that leaves the question of what God does do. Maybe God really is more like the probably illiterate God of the TV show Miracle Workers.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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dande48
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Re: Should I feel guilty?

Post by dande48 » 26 Mar 2019, 06:14

DarkJedi wrote:
26 Mar 2019, 04:54
Interesting point of view. As someone who leans deist (and probably unitarian) I'd say God doesn't do any of that. Of course that leaves the question of what God does do. Maybe God really is more like the probably illiterate God of the TV show Miracle Workers.
Well, I wasn't saying it was my point of view, just what I interpret as the point of view of those who wrote the scriptures. I do think it's kind of interesting that people just accept they should love and worship a extra-terrestrial extra-dimensional being whose intelligence, capabilities, and mere existence is beyond human comprehension. It's also interesting that we attribute it characteristics such as "good" and "loving", when its morality seems so vastly removed from our own. If such a being did exist, I think we should be happy when it seems to be sleeping, and try our best not to wake it.
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Curt Sunshine
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Re: Should I feel guilty?

Post by Curt Sunshine » 26 Mar 2019, 15:32

I hate that quote. I have no problem with seeing family success as important, but I hate that quote.

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DarkJedi
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Re: Should I feel guilty?

Post by DarkJedi » 28 Mar 2019, 05:05

I'm pretty much with Curt. The problem I have goes back to the original question. What constitutes failure - or success - in the home, and whose decision is it? We're all - every single one of us - successful at some things and not at other things. That's what the atonement of Christ is all about.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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LadyofRadiantJoy
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Re: Should I feel guilty?

Post by LadyofRadiantJoy » 12 Apr 2019, 21:05

The way we talk about it at church it is taken to mean that success is sons going on missions, children marrying in temples, staying active, serving in callings and paying tithing and all that stuff. Yet, you can raise children who do all of that stuff and have bad relationships with your children. Parents can raise children to be stoically faithful all their lives, while being abusive parents. No one wants to talk about that because only "righteous" parents can raise children so faithful. I have known people at church who experienced child abuse but then say, "but hey, at least all of us kids had the gospel and went on children" which totally minimizes the very real pain they experienced. It's really sad.

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rrosskopf
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Re: Should I feel guilty?

Post by rrosskopf » 13 Apr 2019, 00:00

It seems to me that people get stuck, finding some comfortable place between no relationship with God and being in his presence, saying here but no further. They resist the Holy Ghost.

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DarkJedi
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Re: Should I feel guilty?

Post by DarkJedi » 13 Apr 2019, 05:27

rrosskopf wrote:
13 Apr 2019, 00:00
It seems to me that people get stuck, finding some comfortable place between no relationship with God and being in his presence, saying here but no further. They resist the Holy Ghost.
I honestly don't know how to respond to this.

You have been warned about being judgemental. Knock it off.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

grobert93
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Re: Should I feel guilty?

Post by grobert93 » 13 Apr 2019, 07:12

LadyofRadiantJoy wrote:
12 Apr 2019, 21:05
The way we talk about it at church it is taken to mean that success is sons going on missions, children marrying in temples, staying active, serving in callings and paying tithing and all that stuff. Yet, you can raise children who do all of that stuff and have bad relationships with your children. Parents can raise children to be stoically faithful all their lives, while being abusive parents. No one wants to talk about that because only "righteous" parents can raise children so faithful. I have known people at church who experienced child abuse but then say, "but hey, at least all of us kids had the gospel and went on children" which totally minimizes the very real pain they experienced. It's really sad.
This is what I have been struggling to live by since I went on a mission. The mission showed me how toxic my childhood was despite doing all the "right" things (baptism, priesthood, Eagle Scout, seminary, mission). Coming home from my mission I fell back into the toxic trap and went off to college after a year. I am now married to someone who was also in a toxic family environment and did not have the gospel support. So having such a different perspective in my new marriage helps me to realize that just because I had all the blessings of the gospel doesn't mean I was going to feel happy.

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