Theology of Star Wars

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Arrakeen
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Re: Theology of Star Wars

Post by Arrakeen » 09 Apr 2019, 22:35

Dune definitely goes far deeper into religion, but it's easier to do that in a book than in a movie. That's why there still hasn't been a really good Dune movie (though there's a new one in the works--I don't expect much).

I grew up with the prequels, so I actually quite like those movies in spite of all the criticism. I always liked Anakin's overall story throughout the saga. The idea that he was the Chosen One, but fell to the dark side. And after all that, he still fulfilled his purpose in bringing balance to the Force. When Anakin became Vader, it seemed like the prophecy was wrong. He joined the Sith and would seemingly never be the one to bring balance. In the end he was still the Chosen One, and the prophecy was right, just not in a way anyone expected. Anakin had a foreordained mission that he accomplished, but not by following the Jedi path.

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SamBee
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Re: Theology of Star Wars

Post by SamBee » 10 Apr 2019, 05:41

Arrakeen wrote:
09 Apr 2019, 22:35
Dune definitely goes far deeper into religion, but it's easier to do that in a book than in a movie. That's why there still hasn't been a really good Dune movie (though there's a new one in the works--I don't expect much).
I've always liked the Lynch version personally. There are some things it gets right - a lot of the sets are fantastic. There are some great scenes in it - the Spice Navigator arriving, the Gom Jabar and some of the Battle Scenes. Maybe not exactly like the book but quite stunning the first time I saw it. Oh and Patrick Stewart got the Captain Picard role off the back of it, so it's a gift to Star Trek in a way too.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

LadyofRadiantJoy
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Re: Theology of Star Wars

Post by LadyofRadiantJoy » 11 Apr 2019, 19:06

dande48 wrote:
07 Apr 2019, 09:02
Episode 8: Rey goes off to find the last Jedi, Luke. He trains her, but she doesn't really need it. She tells him that the Jedi were corrupt, that they allowed the dark side to become so powerful by only embracing the light, and after restarting the Jedi order and failing, Luke wants to do away with the Jedi religion entirely. Kylo Ren, the new Darth Vader, reaches out to Rey through the force. He has become disillusioned with the Sith as well. He believes they should "let the past die". The cycle of pain and suffering, the war of light and dark, empires vs repblic continues. The only way to break the cycle is by doing away with the cause of the cycle, the dichotemy and endless war between "light and dark". He "captures" Rey, and brings her before the new Emperor. Kylo then betrays his emperor and master, and overthrows the new "Empire". He then asks Rey to join him in breaking the cycle, doing away with both the Jedi and the Sith, and bringing in a better world. She rejects him... and this is what I HATE about Disney and gender politics... because it turns out what the Jedi really needed was not a paradigm shift, but a "Mary Sue" woman in charge. So Kylo takes over the first order, and the cycle still continues.
WHOA, You forgot ONE IMPORTANT THING. Kylo was TOTALLY FINE with letting REY's FRIENDS DIE. She is like, order them to stop firing at the rebels! Kylo be like, nah you crazy, I don't care about them, they gotta go. Rey has made all these connections with those people that Kylo was so chill about letting die. So, no, that ain't no Mary Su. That's Rey going, biznatch, I like those people, You wanna stop the war? Start right now and stop killin' my friends. But noooo, he can't do that because reasons.

So no. This is not Mary Sue woman in charge BS. Kthx. Kylo had a shot at really convincing Rey he wants to stop the war and he didn't do it.

LadyofRadiantJoy
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Re: Theology of Star Wars

Post by LadyofRadiantJoy » 11 Apr 2019, 19:28

dande48 wrote:
07 Apr 2019, 09:37
But then it goes ahead and flips itself. What the Jedi need to overcome the dark, is not the paradigm shift, it needs a powerful woman in charge. And THIS is what rubs me the wrong way. I feel the same way about women in the priesthood. Sure, if they are allowed to recieve the priesthood, and serve as bishops, stake presidents, and the Q15, great for them! But is it really going to fix anything? Same problems, different faces. When women achieve powerful positions, it's no longer a powerful man taking advantage of the "little guy", the men and women working on ground floor. It's now a woman taking advantage.
Nothing will change? That is so shortsighted of you.

According to our religion, YOU have more rights to give a NAME and a BLESSINGS to MY BABY that I BIRTHED. I do all that hard work, I have the job of raising up my child righteously as best I can, and I don't even get to participate in a naming ceremony for my own child because I don't have the priesthood.

My family is sick? Culturally I'm not allowed to give my own children a blessing of healing the sick unless there are literally ZERO priesthood holders (men) around to do it, but even then, it's *only* a faith blessing. I can't give my own husband a blessing either when he is ill. Men I have never met have more right to bless my family than me in our religion.

If I had a son, I wouldn't be able to attend priesthood session, but oh you could go with him instead as a priesthood holder, but not his mama. Oh, but wait, actually, any man could take him, because nonmember men are allowed into priesthood session alllllll the time.

I can't give a blessing to my women friends who need them, culturally. I can't receive one from women. I don't get a matriarchal blessing, just a patriarchal one. That's like saying only the dad matters not the mom.

We aren't allowed to do activities at church without a man in the building because "priesthood." Can't go out on a church activity like a hike or camping without men, because "priesthood" and you never know when someone will get hurt and you will need a blessing. We always have to be supervised like children. That is creepy af if you think about it. Men are willing to sleep with us and then turn around and treat us like underage girls who need adult supervision. GROSS. Women are perfectly capable of handling things and giving blessings during times of need.

Also prayer circle. Half the prayer circle is missing during baby blessings.
If we are truly co-equal there would be no hierarchy based on what's between our legs.

The transition will be highly uncomfortable, because we're not used to seeing each other as equal at church. But we will figure it out if we stop talking about all the reasons why we should keep women below men because hey, it'll be just as bad still. If Black men can have their priesthood rights restored and have it all work out fine, I think we can handle women being afforded the same level of respect.

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dande48
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Re: Theology of Star Wars

Post by dande48 » 11 Apr 2019, 22:26

LadyofRadiantJoy wrote:
11 Apr 2019, 19:28
According to our religion, YOU have more rights to give a NAME and a BLESSINGS to MY BABY that I BIRTHED.
According to our religion, the bishop and other Church leaders "allow" us to give the blessings. Priesthood is near meaningless without the proper "keys", and "keys are held by other people. My "rights" only go so far as another man permits it. It's to keep the commons "in line", with the most obedient, strongest supporters of the status-quo getting into leadership. Like with Rey, if she's going to lead the "Jedi Religion" using the same precepts, teachings, philosophies as before... absolutely nothing will change.

Different faces, same story. Endless cycles of conflict. I'm not saying it'd be a bad thing to give women the priesthood. I'm saying that whether or not they have the priesthood, the status quo will be maintained. To me, Rey is the epitome of a revolutionary leader who ultimately keeps everything the same. I can think of a number of leaders, past and present, who we're just like that.
LadyofRadiantJoy wrote:
11 Apr 2019, 19:06
Kylo had a shot at really convincing Rey he wants to stop the war and he didn't do it.
I'd say, it was the other way around.
"The whole world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel." - Horace Walpole

"Even though there are no ways of knowing for sure, there are ways of knowing for pretty sure."
-Lemony Snicket

LadyofRadiantJoy
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Re: Theology of Star Wars

Post by LadyofRadiantJoy » 12 Apr 2019, 10:45

dande48 wrote:
11 Apr 2019, 22:26
LadyofRadiantJoy wrote:
11 Apr 2019, 19:28
According to our religion, YOU have more rights to give a NAME and a BLESSINGS to MY BABY that I BIRTHED.
According to our religion, the bishop and other Church leaders "allow" us to give the blessings. Priesthood is near meaningless without the proper "keys", and "keys are held by other people. My "rights" only go so far as another man permits it. It's to keep the commons "in line", with the most obedient, strongest supporters of the status-quo getting into leadership. Like with Rey, if she's going to lead the "Jedi Religion" using the same precepts, teachings, philosophies as before... absolutely nothing will change.

Different faces, same story. Endless cycles of conflict. I'm not saying it'd be a bad thing to give women the priesthood. I'm saying that whether or not they have the priesthood, the status quo will be maintained. To me, Rey is the epitome of a revolutionary leader who ultimately keeps everything the same. I can think of a number of leaders, past and present, who we're just like that.
LadyofRadiantJoy wrote:
11 Apr 2019, 19:06
Kylo had a shot at really convincing Rey he wants to stop the war and he didn't do it.
I'd say, it was the other way around.
Wow. I'm flabbergasted that you do not see that you being allowed more rights than I based on what's between our legs is not a problem.

Rey will not have the opportunity to bring back the Jedi religion. She has never read the Jedi texts and never will. Yoda destroyed them. It's already different.

It seems to me that you seriously have a problem with women in power. So much so that you don't have a problem with women not being able to bless their own children (and if you say you do, well, you just missed your opportunity to say that it matters because you just went straight to it's all gonna be the same so why bother with it), and so much so you are chill with Kylo telling Rey that her friends should die and see Rey as the main problem in that scene. If Kylo wanted Rey on board all he had to do was order a cease fire. That was literally the only thing standing in the way of Rey choosing him. But nope, to you, she's the problem. If Rey were a Ray, a man, I doubt you would have the same opinion.

Roy
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Re: Theology of Star Wars

Post by Roy » 12 Apr 2019, 11:14

Guys, I find this Star Wars debate stuff fascinating but we seem to be crossing some lines here.

We cannot attack each other. Period. And accusations of sexism against individual members are clearly an attack.

Knock it off.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

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dande48
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Re: Theology of Star Wars

Post by dande48 » 12 Apr 2019, 11:25

FWIW, I don't appreciate you explaining my opinions or telling me what I believe.

Oh, and Rey saved some of the jedi texts. :)
Last edited by dande48 on 12 Apr 2019, 12:24, edited 1 time in total.
"The whole world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel." - Horace Walpole

"Even though there are no ways of knowing for sure, there are ways of knowing for pretty sure."
-Lemony Snicket

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SamBee
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Re: Theology of Star Wars

Post by SamBee » 12 Apr 2019, 11:44

Criminy! What's happened here? I have to admit the only thing which keeps me invested in Rey as a character is Daisy Ridley"s charm and acting skill. I believe the character is underwritten.

And by the by, I always felt Luke sometimes wandered into Mary Sue territroy.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

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dande48
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Re: Theology of Star Wars

Post by dande48 » 12 Apr 2019, 12:42

SamBee wrote:
12 Apr 2019, 11:44
I have to admit the only thing which keeps me invested in Rey as a character is Daisy Ridley"s charm and acting skill. I believe the character is underwritten.
Daisey Ridley is awesome! Most of the actors are, and do a fantastic job for what they are given. I just don't like the writing. IMO, Jyn Erso/Felicity Jones is my all time favorite in Star Wars. Rogue One was fantastic, but I think that has to do with it being mostly written before Disney got involved.

I (obviously) think Luke had a much better story in the original trilogy than Rey in 7 & 8, but I think a lot of my love of his character has to do with how much I like Mark Hamill as a person. I HATED his writing in episode 8 (and episode 7, let's be fair); but he did as well as he could with what he was given.
"The whole world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel." - Horace Walpole

"Even though there are no ways of knowing for sure, there are ways of knowing for pretty sure."
-Lemony Snicket

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