Individualization

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Roy
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Joined: 07 Oct 2010, 14:16
Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: Individualization

Post by Roy » 27 Aug 2018, 16:11

DoubtingTom wrote:
27 Aug 2018, 14:23
The church as an institution can decide how they want to distribute church authority and run their ship
The thought occurs to me to "render unto Caesar, that which is Caesar's". For those of us that wish to continue within the active Mormon community there are some minimum standards to meet. In addition, sometimes what you say can be less important than how you say it.

Baptising my children is important to me in being an honored part of an important rite of passage. This is a church ordinance and the church has every right to determine who can and cannot perform it. I have tried to be prudent (not fake or dishonest but not unfiltered either) in the things I say and do in order to maximize the chance of being able to meaningfully participate in such events.

The church has authority over my church actions and church behavior (again at least as far as setting minimum standards goes).

Church (both as an organization and as a concept) can easily overreach and assume more authority over your personal life than it has any right to.

Part of my process to StayLDS has been to identify between my personal responsibility to prayfully chart (together with DW as equal partners) my own life course on one hand and those areas of church authority on the other. Once I identify the "demarcation line" that I feel comfortable with it can be important develop and maintain healthy boundaries in this area.

This is probably not what Elder Oaks meant in his talk. I claim the right to interpret anything he or anybody else says to determine applicability to my life and my circumstances.

To bring this full circle, I do not broadcast that I might reject parts of Elder Oak's talk in SM or EQ. To do so might get me in trouble with local leadership. I quetly take charge of my life decisions. I am not in revolt. I am just a person trying to navigate life's competing relationships, demands, and responsibilites the best way that I know how.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

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DarkJedi
Posts: 6019
Joined: 24 Aug 2013, 20:53

Re: Individualization

Post by DarkJedi » 27 Aug 2018, 17:52

DoubtingTom wrote:
27 Aug 2018, 14:23
I have many thoughts on this but I’ll keep this comment brief. Your personal relationship with God is between you and Him. Your ability to receive personal revelation for your life has nothing to do with “worthiness.”

I know for a fact that receiving revelation and having deeply meaningful spiritual experiences is not tied to being worthy or even to a belief in God. How do I know this? Because I (currently) don’t believe in God. And yet, even in my moments of quiet disbelief, I have continued to have profound experiences and deeply meaningful insights that are identical experientially to those when I was a “worthy” fully believing member.

So whether those sorts of revelations actually come from God through the Holy Ghost (as I used to see it) or there is a more naturalistic explanation that invokes what we currently know about human psychology and neuroscience (as I currently see it), it doesn’t particularly matter to me. I will believe what I currently believe and live according to what I feel right about and let those amazing and wonderful spiritual experiences happen as they will, without regards to my relationship to the church.

The church as an institution can decide how they want to distribute church authority and run their ship, but they cannot dictate the terms under which you experience your relationship with divinity. Whatever your beliefs or actions, that relationship is for you to experience and it is beautiful. There is danger in tying that personal relationship to your church relationship. From the church’s viewpoint it makes sense, but from a personal growth viewpoint that sort of attitude is damning to the soul.
^This. :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

My Introduction

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SilentDawning
Posts: 6813
Joined: 09 May 2010, 19:55

Re: Individualization

Post by SilentDawning » 28 Aug 2018, 08:20

Shell wrote:
27 Aug 2018, 10:52
I seem to be dealing with a much larger question, as I'm sure a lot of you are, than just if the church is true. I have very few beliefs that I have concluded on. One of my beliefs is that spirituality is so individualized that we will never find another person who is the same in every aspect. I believe that any choice made in faith can be correct, but may only be correct for that individual. I believe God made us all different visually, so that we could see that we are all different spiritually. I'd be interested to hear some other thoughts.

I have an idea of how to, maybe, look at that talk and see a way around it. What if my personal revelation is valid, so long as it fits in some way with priesthood revelation. Maybe I don't have to agree 100% in every aspect, just be able to see what they are saying. Maybe what God means is that we should come to him asking for guidance on priesthood revelation so that he can build us up. Maybe Oaks just got it a little confused. I'm not sure, just my rambling thoughts.
Interesting, in my work in personality theory, I happened upon Individualization. It's a trait where people tend to see the diversity in other people, tend to shun "across the board' policies or ways of doing things given the individualization of their followers. Some are even willing to throw out fairness if it means a person's individual situation can be addressed with policies, which, on the outside, might seem unfair to others. I fall into that category as I have individualization in my personality profile.

You may have that trait as well.

I tend to agree with you -- see the parts in bold above.

I think you can also direct the individualization argument to the apostles and prophets. They each bring their own personality and worldview to their office, and it comes out in their talks. They too are individuals. Boyd K Packer was a hard nut and took a hard line on all kinds of issues. Uchdorft -- he was more open minded and less likely to paint everyone with the same brush. You can even say that these apostles have their own development/evolution, and as individuals, it changes over time.

One apostle's revelation is another Apostle's opinion (they don't always agree either) -- they didn't even agree on whether the new handbook a few years ago was revelation or simply the leaders' "best understanding at the time". They have even made blaring mistakes like believing the priesthood ban was inspired, plural marriage, and reverse the decisions of other prophets when previously, people treated flawed programs like home teaching as divinely revealed.

So, I would take EVERYTHING the prophets and apostles say as opinion to be tested in the court of personal revelation. And if my revelation conflicts with the priesthood line, I will simply live my life accordingly, with one caveat -- DON'T START A MOVEMENT OR EVANGALIZE YOUR INDIVIDUAL REVELATION/OPINION TO ANYONE LOCALLY. Keep it to yourself and enjoy the challenge of being who you are, while being an active or semi-active Mormon at the same time.

That is my individualized opinion. :lol:
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"Stage 5 is where you no longer believe the gospel as its literally or traditionally taught. Nonetheless, you find your own way to be active and at peace within it". -- SD

The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

My introduction: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1576

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SilentDawning
Posts: 6813
Joined: 09 May 2010, 19:55

Re: Individualization

Post by SilentDawning » 28 Aug 2018, 08:54

Roy wrote:
27 Aug 2018, 16:11
The thought occurs to me to "render unto Caesar, that which is Caesar's". For those of us that wish to continue within the active Mormon community there are some minimum standards to meet. In addition, sometimes what you say can be less important than how you say it.

Baptising my children is important to me in being an honored part of an important rite of passage. This is a church ordinance and the church has every right to determine who can and cannot perform it. I have tried to be prudent (not fake or dishonest but not unfiltered either) in the things I say and do in order to maximize the chance of being able to meaningfully participate in such events.

The church has authority over my church actions and church behavior (again at least as far as setting minimum standards goes).
Agreed -- it's their right to behave as they wish by instituting policy, revelation, denying privileges. They are constrained, somewhat, by the invisible hand of member opinion, but not very much.
Church (both as an organization and as a concept) can easily overreach and assume more authority over your personal life than it has any right to.

Part of my process to StayLDS has been to identify between my personal responsibility to prayfully chart (together with DW as equal partners) my own life course on one hand and those areas of church authority on the other. Once I identify the "demarcation line" that I feel comfortable with it can be important develop and maintain healthy boundaries in this area.
Totally perfect statement. They CAN and WILL try to overstep their boundaries -- particularly those leaders who really buy into the power they have as religious leaders. Some are simply misguided or lack judgment. It's up to us to decide just how much they can push us. I have been pushed too far, and have my own demarcation lines. I think I probably pushed too far when I was a TBM leader years and years ago, so I can't fault them. Most are doing what they think is best.
Roy wrote:
27 Aug 2018, 16:11
This is probably not what Elder Oaks meant in his talk. I claim the right to interpret anything he or anybody else says to determine applicability to my life and my circumstances.
Yep -- that is what I was saying above. You might even find that something he said years and years ago that he no longer believes!.
To bring this full circle, I do not broadcast that I might reject parts of Elder Oak's talk in SM or EQ. To do so might get me in trouble with local leadership. I quietly take charge of my life decisions. I am not in revolt. I am just a person trying to navigate life's competing relationships, demands, and responsibilites the best way that I know how.
Again, I could have written this post above. It reflects my own approach, and it is one that has helped us find a certain measure of peace amidst the distress our church membership has caused some of us, leading to faith/commitment crisis.
"It doesn't have to be about the Church (church) all the time!" -- SD

"Stage 5 is where you no longer believe the gospel as its literally or traditionally taught. Nonetheless, you find your own way to be active and at peace within it". -- SD

The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

My introduction: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1576

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