Challenge to Become

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AmyJ
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Joined: 27 Jul 2017, 05:50

Challenge to Become

Post by AmyJ » 13 Jun 2018, 13:42

I am going to put some of what Heber said in the past in this post, and then add some more stuff.
Heber13 wrote:
11 Feb 2015, 21:46
mom3 wrote: I read Tuesdays With Morrie.
I liked that book.

I read that book and in the same week stumbled across Elder Oaks' talk "The Challenge to Become". It did make me ponder about how I want to conduct myself, who I want to connect with, and what things matter to me in this world.
Dallin H. Oaks wrote:It is not enough for anyone just to go through the motions. The commandments, ordinances, and covenants of the gospel are not a list of deposits required to be made in some heavenly account. The gospel of Jesus Christ is a plan that shows us how to become what our Heavenly Father desires us to become.
....
I hope the importance of conversion and becoming will cause our local leaders to reduce their concentration on statistical measures of actions and to focus more on what our brothers and sisters are and what they are striving to become.

Our needed conversions are often achieved more readily by suffering and adversity than by comfort and tranquillity...

We do not obtain our heavenly reward by punching a time clock. What is essential is that our labors in the workplace of the Lord have caused us to become something. For some of us, this requires a longer time than for others. What is important in the end is what we have become by our labors. Many who come in the eleventh hour have been refined and prepared by the Lord in ways other than formal employment in the vineyard.

...
Instead of being judgmental about others, we should be concerned about ourselves. We must not give up hope. We must not stop striving. We are children of God, and it is possible for us to become what our Heavenly Father would have us become.
These words were meaningful to me.
My husband and I are learning to respect the paths we find ourselves in. We didn't expect to wind up where we are (though hindsight being 20/20, it is not unexpected). Because I have been focusing on the principle of Charity, and the 2 Great Commandments, I believe I am a better person. I also see that I have a LOT more to work on.
One of the key things I have learned this past year is that I CANNOT and SHOULD NOT judge another's path. If I have the relationship there, I can counsel them against some unhealthy habits - maybe - if I have the social currency and the wisdom for that and they are at a place where something might stick. All I can do is be the best loyal sidekick cheering from the side of the superhero(ine) in their story and be the best superheroine I can be in my own story.
Dallin H. Oaks wrote:Many who come in the eleventh hour have been refined and prepared by the Lord in ways other than formal employment in the vineyard.
While it is probable that President Oaks was referring to those people who are baptized later in life, in other circumstances can one arrive at "the 11th hour"?

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DarkJedi
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Re: Challenge to Become

Post by DarkJedi » 13 Jun 2018, 15:11

While it is probable that President Oaks was referring to those people who are baptized later in life, in other circumstances can one arrive at "the 11th hour"?
Sure can. I think that's what the parable of the workers in the vineyard is all about.

Matthew 20 (NRSV):
“For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard. 2 After agreeing with the laborers for the usual daily wage, he sent them into his vineyard. 3 When he went out about nine o’clock, he saw others standing idle in the marketplace; 4 and he said to them, ‘You also go into the vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.’ So they went. 5 When he went out again about noon and about three o’clock, he did the same. 6 And about five o’clock he went out and found others standing around; and he said to them, ‘Why are you standing here idle all day?’ 7 They said to him, ‘Because no one has hired us.’ He said to them, ‘You also go into the vineyard.’ 8 When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his manager, ‘Call the laborers and give them their pay, beginning with the last and then going to the first.’ 9 When those hired about five o’clock came, each of them received the usual daily wage. 10 Now when the first came, they thought they would receive more; but each of them also received the usual daily wage. 11 And when they received it, they grumbled against the landowner, 12 saying, ‘These last worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the day and the scorching heat.’ 13 But he replied to one of them, ‘Friend, I am doing you no wrong; did you not agree with me for the usual daily wage? 14 Take what belongs to you and go; I choose to give to this last the same as I give to you. 15 Am I not allowed to do what I choose with what belongs to me? Or are you envious because I am generous?’ 16 So the last will be first, and the first will be last.”
(And just for the record, it was Elder Oaks then.)
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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Heber13
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Re: Challenge to Become

Post by Heber13 » 14 Jun 2018, 12:32

AmyJ wrote:
13 Jun 2018, 13:42
While it is probable that President Oaks was referring to those people who are baptized later in life, in other circumstances can one arrive at "the 11th hour"?
Good question. There are likely many applications of this principle. The idea is that our linear timing of things and efforts as we define them from our perspective in this mortal life are not the same as the Lord's, therefore, we must be careful when we think we can judge others or how God interacts with others and what is "fair," but stay focused with my own interaction with the divine.

So...another application...life-time members of the church that did all they were asked to do, obedient in all things, always active, dutifully fulfilling their callings and being missionaries and going to the temple and living in a Stage 3 bubble of the One True Church mentality...may in the 11th hour as they are older in life have a faith crisis or traumatic life event to help them finally realize a Stage 5 conjunctive faithful perspective...and then finally actually see how their lifetime service in the church was meaningful to their development, to get them to the point they were ready for a new lesson and let go of the iron rod in faith.

God may know when they are ready to finally learn a more compassionate meaning to all the church commandments and ways. And see that others don't need the same path they thought was the only narrow and straight path required for all. The true spirit to the letter of the law they cling to.

Even in the 11th hour...their eyes can be opened to see it differently...not wasting a whole lifetime of devotion to the church...but realizing that helped them get to where they are...and be ready for more learning when they become who God wants them to become.

Because that can be applied to others at church on their path...I don't need to convince them of anything different from my personal experirences. The Lord of the vineyard will pay them as he determines they are to be paid. Even if my labors and my path is different from theirs, and even if the other laborers complain or say that i'm doing it wrong...I'm not getting paid by other laborers...but by the Lord. I need not concern myself with what others say I need to do. Just love them and allow them to worship how, where, or what they may.

It is who we become that is of prime importance...not how we get there or how much time it takes.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

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LookingHard
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Re: Challenge to Become

Post by LookingHard » 14 Jun 2018, 14:49

That is probably one of my favorite talks and most of it I still can get behind even after my faith transition. I don't focus on the "11th hour" stuff, but more on the "it isn't about a checklist - it is about what you become as a person."

DancingCarrot
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Joined: 23 May 2014, 18:24

Re: Challenge to Become

Post by DancingCarrot » 15 Jun 2018, 15:02

Sure, I can agree with then-Elder Oaks since I’m not sure that the clock ever really strikes the 12th hour, except perhaps in a few select cases. I like the reminder, though. My agreement is with God, and that is where my focus lies.

I will add, though, that it’s difficult to have a parent who IS concerned with both the timeline and checklist ordinances. I tend to date outside of the church and will likely marry that way, and it casts such a dark cloud in my mind when I think of all the conversations or disappointment specifically my one parent would feel at something that’s, in my mind, a wonderful thing to be celebrated.


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It does not do to dwell on dreams and forget to live. -Dumbledore

Roll away your stone, I'll roll away mine. Together we can see what we will find. -Mumford & Sons

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Heber13
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Re: Challenge to Become

Post by Heber13 » 16 Jun 2018, 08:34

That's sad to have dark clouds hang over loving life choices.

I guess at some point it's part of brraking from parents and blazing your own life. Even if they think they are doing it out love, it sucks when such expectations hold back true christ-like family relationships.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

DancingCarrot
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Joined: 23 May 2014, 18:24

Re: Challenge to Become

Post by DancingCarrot » 19 Jun 2018, 06:28

I don’t want the detail the thread, but thanks heber13. Just being validated by you helps. Looks like someone is exercising their Christ-like compassion muscles...BECOMING more like Christ, dare I say! Derail averted!


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It does not do to dwell on dreams and forget to live. -Dumbledore

Roll away your stone, I'll roll away mine. Together we can see what we will find. -Mumford & Sons

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Heber13
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Location: In the Middle

Re: Challenge to Become

Post by Heber13 » 19 Jun 2018, 17:02

You're a good soul, DC. Thanks for all you add to the forum. We're all here to support each other. Thanks for your example. keep us updated.
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

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