True Forgiveness

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nibbler
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Re: True Forgiveness

Post by nibbler » 07 Apr 2018, 18:30

Everyone says forgiveness is a lovely idea, until they have something to forgive.
Ain't that the truth.

This is a concept I've struggled with. One I think we all struggle with from time to time. I think at our core most people strive for justice. In a way, forgiving others can be like letting go of our need for what we feel to be just.

It's a delicate walk and I don't know how to put this into words. I'll try.

Forgiving people that are penitent is hard.
Forgiving people that aren't penitent is hard.
Forgiving people for a one time offense is hard.
Forgiving people for a truly heinous act is hard.

One category I've struggled with, and the one where I feel it's difficult to find a balance...
It's hard to forgive people when there are chronic issues. Not just one time offenses but a pattern of behavior that has happened in the past, and worse yet, patterns that you fully expect to extend out to the foreseeable future. You know the change isn't going to come, the offenses will continue but you have to dig deep to find a way to forgive... not just past incidents but future ones as well. Like you have to forgive a part of someone that will always be with them as opposed to forgiving a specific act.

I think this is where we get into the struggle; where the ideas of forgiving but not forgetting and the forgiving but closing yourself off from further harm come from. It's not easy. It's never easy. If there was an answer everyone would be doing it and it wouldn't be a struggle. It may take time, let it take time, it's supposed to take time, but continue to work at it.
You can't just have your characters announce how they feel... that makes me feel ANGRY!
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Roy
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Re: True Forgiveness

Post by Roy » 08 Apr 2018, 08:48

nibbler wrote:
07 Apr 2018, 18:30
I think this is where we get into the struggle; where the ideas of forgiving but not forgetting and the forgiving but closing yourself off from further harm come from.
For me forgiving is about moving on. It is about avoiding rancor, bitterness, and revenge.

Also it appears that not everyone naturally has the same ability to move on (resiliency).
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

Curt Sunshine
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Re: True Forgiveness

Post by Curt Sunshine » 08 Apr 2018, 18:27

Fwiw, we are not commanded to forget everything we forgive.

That is a critical point that FAR too many people misunderstand.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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LDS_Scoutmaster
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Re: True Forgiveness

Post by LDS_Scoutmaster » 08 Apr 2018, 22:31

nibbler wrote:
07 Apr 2018, 18:30
It's hard to forgive people when there are chronic issues. Not just one time offenses but a pattern of behavior that has happened in the past, and worse yet, patterns that you fully expect to extend out to the foreseeable future. You know the change isn't going to come, the offenses will continue but you have to dig deep to find a way to forgive... not just past incidents but future ones as well. Like you have to forgive a part of someone that will always be with them as opposed to forgiving a specific act.
Curt Sunshine wrote:
08 Apr 2018, 18:27
Fwiw, we are not commanded to forget everything we forgive.

That is a critical point that FAR too many people misunderstand.
Exactly. Forgiveness does not equal trust.

Roy wrote:
08 Apr 2018, 08:48
For me forgiving is about moving on. It is about avoiding rancor, bitterness, and revenge.
Moving on and letting go. Forgiveness is more for the forgiver than the forgivee.
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=6311&start=70#p121051 My last talk

We are all imperfect beings, dealing with other imperfect beings, and we're doing it imperfectly.

AmyJ
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Re: True Forgiveness

Post by AmyJ » 09 Apr 2018, 07:06

nibbler wrote:
07 Apr 2018, 18:30
One category I've struggled with, and the one where I feel it's difficult to find a balance...
It's hard to forgive people when there are chronic issues. Not just one time offenses but a pattern of behavior that has happened in the past, and worse yet, patterns that you fully expect to extend out to the foreseeable future. You know the change isn't going to come, the offenses will continue but you have to dig deep to find a way to forgive... not just past incidents but future ones as well. Like you have to forgive a part of someone that will always be with them as opposed to forgiving a specific act.
I have struggled with this as well. For me, this is where the principle of forgiveness blends into the principle of charity. I can choose whether to forgive and how to do so. It is charity when I no longer judge someone for what they are not able to do for whatever reason.

"Forgiveness is giving up my right to hurt you because you hurt me." Jan Karon.
"Charity is revising my expectations and improving understanding of you so that I understand and can take into account why you hurt me."

afterall
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Re: True Forgiveness

Post by afterall » 16 Apr 2018, 19:40

As someone who has had to forgive too much for one person in a lifetime, I have found one test for myself to check myself. You see, I have learned that some people are so wounded/defective/clueless, etc. that you must forgive from a distance....setting boundaries, not trusting them again ever after yet another terrible injury from them. So, my test for myself is this: if I see them on the side of the road, wounded, would I be able to rush to their assistance for that moment to help them? If I can say yes to that and know I really feel that in my heart, then I am okay with forgiving them their injuries to me or mine, as well as being okay with setting boundaries- even if it means keeping them at arms length.

Curt Sunshine
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Re: True Forgiveness

Post by Curt Sunshine » 16 Apr 2018, 20:15

Thank you, afterall. That is deeply profound.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

DancingCarrot
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Re: True Forgiveness

Post by DancingCarrot » 18 Apr 2018, 13:19

Amen to AmyJ and afterall.

AmyJ, your addition regarding charity provides another layer to consider. I love that charity helps to gain clarity about reality to help both you and the other person interact (or not, whatever the case may be) in the future. Charity is not some far-off ideal, but takes place in real-time.

afterall, I have also found your perspective to echo mine, especially as of late. Through my line of work in the healthcare industry, I have observed that some people really do not have some capabilities and will most likely not attain them while they are living. I have also learned that it is far better for me to set specific boundaries and enforce them so that our interactions don't devolve into trying to control each other or resentment. Asking the question "Would I help if they needed it?" sounds like a good litmus test to see how much hurt we're holding onto for the sake of making ourselves feel better or superior.
It does not do to dwell on dreams and forget to live. -Dumbledore

Roll away your stone, I'll roll away mine. Together we can see what we will find. -Mumford & Sons

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