Nephite/Almaite/Limihite/Ammulonnite Intregrations

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AmyJ
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Nephite/Almaite/Limihite/Ammulonnite Intregrations

Post by AmyJ » 13 Nov 2017, 11:32

Mosiah 25: 5-12

"And it came to pass that Mosiah did read, and caused to be read, the records of Zeniff to his people; yea, he read the records of the people of Zeniff, from the time they left the land of Zarahemla until they returned again. And he also read the account of Alma and his brethren, and all their afflictions, from the time they left the land of Zarahemla until the time they returned again. And now, when Mosiah had made an end of reading the records, his people who tarried in the land were struck with wonder and amazement. For they knew not what to think; for when they beheld those that had been delivered out of bondage they were filled with exceedingly great joy. And again, when they thought of their brethren who had been slain by the Lamanites they were filled with sorrow, and even shed many tears of sorrow. And again, when they thought of the immediate goodness of God, and his power in delivering Alma and his brethren out of the hands of the Lamanites and of bondage, they did raise their voices and give thanks to God. And again, when they thought upon the Lamanites, who were their brethren, of their sinful and polluted state, they were filled with pain and anguish for the welfare of their souls. And it came to pass that those who were the children of Amulon and his brethren, who had taken to wife the daughters of the Lamanites, were displeased with the conduct of their fathers, and they would no longer be called by the names of their fathers, therefore they took upon themselves the name of Nephi, that they might be called the children of Nephi and be numbered among those who were called Nephites."

I found this passage interesting because it is a description of the integration efforts of 4 groups of people in a shortish period of time. Limhi and his followers had been in bondage for many years, had lost most of their men to battles and were focused on survival/escape from the Lamanites. Alma and his followers were also held in captivity for a period of time, but were miraculously freed when a deep sleep fell upon the Lamanites. Alma's followers also dealt with a specific hatred of Alma by Ammulon - Ammulon was enraged because Alma had been "one of them" and betrayed their priest group. It is interesting to note that some of the children of Ammulon chose to follow Alma out into the wilderness. Both Limi's and Alma's groups of people would need to choose to overcome hatred and potential revenge towards the children of Ammulon. American history tells of struggles that people have always had regarding the integration of other people/cultures - this is still a theme of our society. What is next interesting to me is that Mosiah, Alma, (and presumably Limhi) preach "faith and repentence" to the people as part of the process of integrating their groups of people into the Nephite society.

Is it plausible that something like this happened? What does it take for multiple cultures/groups of people to integrate successfully into other groups of people?

Roy
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Re: Nephite/Almaite/Limihite/Ammulonnite Intregrations

Post by Roy » 13 Nov 2017, 12:40

Good questions? A common enemy is a good start. A dominant and perceived superior culture will tend to overtake the children of the immigrants over time. It also depends on the community, identity, and rituals of the immigrant community. I understand that Jewish communities were notorious for resisting assimilation - sometimes to the suspicion and resentment of their host communities.

Elder Oaks gave a sermon on assimilating to Gospel Culture. https://www.lds.org/ensign/2012/03/the- ... e?lang=eng
He praised the young for being flexible in taking up the new culture easily.
He encouraged those older to give up traditions of the past and upbringing.

We had a very lengthy discussion on that sermon here:
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=8213&hilit=gospel+culture
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

“It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

"I struggle now with establishing my faith that God may always be there, but may not always need to intervene" Heber13

DancingCarrot
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Re: Nephite/Almaite/Limihite/Ammulonnite Intregrations

Post by DancingCarrot » 13 Nov 2017, 16:35

AmyJ wrote:
13 Nov 2017, 11:32
Is it plausible that something like this happened? What does it take for multiple cultures/groups of people to integrate successfully into other groups of people?
Absolutely it's possible things like this have happened because things like this have been happening since humans became sentient enough to act like humans. I recently finished reading the duo of books, The Origins of Political Order and Political Decay by Francis Fukuyama. In them, the author details and weaves the world's history from pre-civilized times to our modern era in a way I've never seen done before. It took me months to get through both books, but the knowledge gained was extremely paradigm shifting and rewarding. Typically, cultures/groups of people integrate "successfully" into other groups through violence of the stronger group. It has happened that way on every continent, in every nation, and to most groups of people. Some groups had a longer run of their violent reign, and some groups were more violent than others. But violence is the most common thread that weaves assimilation, especially total assimilation, throughout human history.

Even when people assimilate into other cultures/groups of people willingly, it's not without its struggles, doubts, and questioning. It's difficult to find belonging in unfamiliar places, with people who value different things than you. I agree with Roy in the sense that if some people deem their current culture to be better or easier to live within instead of resisting, then that can cause them to assimilate. I also think that there are various levels of assimilation.

To literally answer your whole question: maybe it's possible that a tribe decided to assimilate into another tribe of their own volition. However, I am led to believe otherwise when I consider history and current events.
It does not do to dwell on dreams and forget to live. -Dumbledore

Roll away your stone, I'll roll away mine. Together we can see what we will find. -Mumford & Sons

Curt Sunshine
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Re: Nephite/Almaite/Limihite/Ammulonnite Intregrations

Post by Curt Sunshine » 13 Nov 2017, 21:26

Yes, it is possible. It isn't all that uncommon, actually.

Over time, the end result also tends to be similar: discord, war, and destruction.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

DancingCarrot
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Re: Nephite/Almaite/Limihite/Ammulonnite Intregrations

Post by DancingCarrot » 14 Nov 2017, 20:44

Curt,

Do you mean that the discord, war, and destruction are the result of assimilation? Or have they also been an impetus for assimilation? Or some mixture?


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It does not do to dwell on dreams and forget to live. -Dumbledore

Roll away your stone, I'll roll away mine. Together we can see what we will find. -Mumford & Sons

Curt Sunshine
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Re: Nephite/Almaite/Limihite/Ammulonnite Intregrations

Post by Curt Sunshine » 15 Nov 2017, 08:54

Both.

In the Book of Mormon, there was control by a religious minority of a larger group. That minority "imposed" it's religion and political leadership on the majority.

When that happens, historically, the result is eventually discord and internal fighting - especially when political power is shaky (like when a leader is dying or leaving office).

When everyone is forced to cooperate or shares a religion or political philosophy, things are stable - for a few generations.

It is the circle of life, historically.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

DancingCarrot
Posts: 128
Joined: 23 May 2014, 18:24

Re: Nephite/Almaite/Limihite/Ammulonnite Intregrations

Post by DancingCarrot » 15 Nov 2017, 11:10

Ok, I understand what you’re saying. The books I mentioned above generally say the same thing, albeit with 100s more pages and lots of vocabulary look up.

Anyway, the historical results give more credence to the notion of letting people worship according to the dictates of their conscience.


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It does not do to dwell on dreams and forget to live. -Dumbledore

Roll away your stone, I'll roll away mine. Together we can see what we will find. -Mumford & Sons

nibbler
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Re: Nephite/Almaite/Limihite/Ammulonnite Intregrations

Post by nibbler » 16 Nov 2017, 06:39

DancingCarrot wrote:
13 Nov 2017, 16:35
Even when people assimilate into other cultures/groups of people willingly, it's not without its struggles, doubts, and questioning. It's difficult to find belonging in unfamiliar places, with people who value different things than you. I agree with Roy in the sense that if some people deem their current culture to be better or easier to live within instead of resisting, then that can cause them to assimilate. I also think that there are various levels of assimilation.
See you at church this Sunday!

;)

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