Symbolism in the temple vs. baptism

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Reuben
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Re: Symbolism in the temple vs. baptism

Post by Reuben » 09 Nov 2017, 01:56

DarkJedi wrote:
05 Nov 2017, 11:28
While I do love the symbolism of being buried and resurrected to new life etc., I can also see how sprinkling baptism have related symbolism. So I'm having a hard time reconciling why it's OK to perform and "preach" that sort of symbolism in the temple (at least that temple ordinance) and not baptism. Just saying.
I think the temple ordinances have changed because they can. They're not written down in an authoritative source that's available to members. Most members who get them are already heavily invested. They're done in secret, so we don't (and can't) use their form to police the boundaries between our church and other Christian churches - just their existence.

On top of that, there's much more motivation. Every change I know of has addressed the fact that many members found the temple ordinances to be too long, too creepy, or too sexist. Our public ordinances have none of those problems.

So... I think motivation and ability drive the double standard w.r.t. changing the ordinances.
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On Own Now
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Re: Symbolism in the temple vs. baptism

Post by On Own Now » 09 Nov 2017, 10:20

As I mentioned earlier, the Church uses looser rules when it comes to the Sacrament...and this is sanctioned by the revelation I referenced earlier. Instead of wine, we drink water. This was apparently done at a time when buying wine was a hardship for the impoverished Church. The water version eventually stuck, probably more because of the WOW.

The modern CHI Handbook II states:
Following the hymn, the person who blesses the bread kneels and offers the sacrament prayer for the bread.
The sacrament prayers were revealed by the Lord (see D&C 20:77, 79; Moroni 4–5). The bishop makes sure they are spoken clearly, accurately, and with dignity...[instructions for passing the bread]...The person who blesses the water then kneels and offers the sacrament prayer for the water (see D&C 20:79), substituting the word water for wine.
Every week, in every ward, the second priest diverges from the wording "revealed by the Lord" in the above referenced scriptures.

Anyone who has blessed the water using our scriptures for the text knows to change the wording; not reading exactly what it says.

It's even a bit more stark if you are doing so in a language which has masculine/feminine nouns and pronouns. In Romance Languages, 'wine' is a masculine word, but 'water' is feminine. In Spanish you have to change three words ('this', 'wine', and 'it'), and the third is only obvious if to know the language fairly well:
...te pedimos que bendigas y santifiques [esta agua] para las almas de todos los que [la] beban...
It's tricky because a non-native priest has to know that "agua" is a feminine noun even though it is always referred to as "el agua" rather than "la agua" (for reasons of a more obscure linguistic rule), yet the pronoun is 'la' rather than 'lo'.
"Let us therefore no longer pass judgment on one another, but resolve instead never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of another." --Romans 14:13

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SamBee
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Re: Symbolism in the temple vs. baptism

Post by SamBee » 12 Nov 2017, 10:54

The explanation I've heard is that the early saints feared being poisoned.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

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DarkJedi
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Re: Symbolism in the temple vs. baptism

Post by DarkJedi » 12 Nov 2017, 12:51

SamBee wrote:
12 Nov 2017, 10:54
The explanation I've heard is that the early saints feared being poisoned.
I've heard that explanation as well, and it may have been true - at least poisoning Joseph Smith. What I don't know is why we didn't switch back to wine after that danger was over.

But OON makes a good point. Here's another. What day is LDS sacrament meeting (and the rest of the block) in Israel? The answer is Saturday if you didn't know. Why? Because that's when the majority of the people there are celebrating the Sabbath and Sunday is a regular business day. In Jordan services are on Friday. Therefore, the Sabbath in Israel for Latter-day Saints is Saturday and it's Friday in Jordan. What does that tell us? That the day of the week is not as important as having a Sabbath is. I once argued with a missionary companion about this (I was young and foolish then, which makes sense because now I'm old and foolish) and he insisted that the Sabbath must be on Sunday, no ifs ands or buts. The miracle of the internet has made such things much easier to prove.

(My references include LDS maps and the BYU Jerusalem Center page. I have heard of Thursday SM someplace but can find no reference, although there is some historical evidence of fasting and testimony meetings being held on Thursdays in Utah.)
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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nibbler
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Re: Symbolism in the temple vs. baptism

Post by nibbler » 12 Nov 2017, 12:57

DarkJedi wrote:
12 Nov 2017, 12:51
But OON makes a good point. Here's another. What day is LDS sacrament meeting (and the rest of the block) in Israel? The answer is Saturday if you didn't know. Why? Because that's when the majority of the people there are celebrating the Sabbath and Sunday is a regular business day. In Jordan services are on Friday. Therefore, the Sabbath in Israel for Latter-day Saints is Saturday and it's Friday in Jordan. What's that tell us?
It tells us that we start to focus on symbolism and the spirit of the law... after an entity with more power/clout comes along to dislodge us from our time honored traditions.

It's just that I've seen tradition cloud common sense more often than not and I have to conclude that was the case because the balance of power was tilted to favor the church in those instances.

As to the wine? I envision a few catalysts for that revelation. A revelation inspired by thrift/being cheap. A practical revelation that you receive when you forgot to bring the wine to sacrament (or perhaps drunk it all the night before). ;) :angel:
Of course I don’t want to get knocked down. But the single and sole solution to that fear is to not go anywhere where I can be knocked down. And is that not already being knocked down?
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LDS_Scoutmaster
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Re: Symbolism in the temple vs. baptism

Post by LDS_Scoutmaster » 22 Nov 2017, 12:22

On Own Now wrote: In other words, there was a set way to do things, but accommodation was given for adjustment to circumstances.
I remember hearing a story of an elderly woman who was baptized, but the don't water was cold as the heater was broken. Her for kept coming up, or her hand, and after the third attempt she had enough. So she kept coming to church, but was never 'officially' baptized. Long story short, a GA was visiting, the SP asked what to do about this problem, and once the GA found out she was still active, he said to count it.
I don't know if this story is factual, or Mormon Urban Legend.
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Heber13
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Re: Symbolism in the temple vs. baptism

Post by Heber13 » 22 Nov 2017, 13:48

I think the tricky part is that after you realize there are accommodations for everything spiritual, then...when should we ever apply the learnings of steadying the ark of the covenant results in instant lightening death?

Both lessons are taught at church. Sometimes we let the baptisms stand. Sometimes we require them to be re-baptized to fulfill all righteousness with exactness and faith that God will protect us from the freezing waters.

We are taught that somethings really do matter. It is just hard to tell what those things are. At least...I struggle with knowing that. We seem to cover it up with "let the spirit guide you".
Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."
Obi-Wan: "Your father... was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to...depend greatly on our point of view."

AmyJ
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Re: Symbolism in the temple vs. baptism

Post by AmyJ » 22 Nov 2017, 14:32

Heber13 wrote:
22 Nov 2017, 13:48
I think the tricky part is that after you realize there are accommodations for everything spiritual, then...when should we ever apply the learning of steadying the ark of the covenant results in instant lightening death?
This...
Heber13 wrote:
22 Nov 2017, 13:48
Both lessons are taught at church. Sometimes we let the baptisms stand. Sometimes we require them to be re-baptized to fulfill all righteousness with exactness and faith that God will protect us from the freezing waters.

We are taught that somethings really do matter. It is just hard to tell what those things are. At least...I struggle with knowing that. We seem to cover it up with "let the spirit guide you".
I put that part in bold because that is what I am struggling with. In the last 6 months, I have been thinking about what re-framing what I felt I knew about myself that really mattered in an entirely new light. It is liberating - I no longer have the ability to see things the way I previously saw them. It is very scary and lonely because I no longer have the ability to see things the way I previously saw them. Overall, it is not a bad thing - I have become a better friend to myself and made new friends along the way.

I think my greatest struggle right now is acknowledging that I don't know what the best options are - and I am the best expert I've got in the human realm. I have given it a lot of thought, and I am not in the anger stage, the bargaining stage, or the depressive stage. I don't think I am in the denial stage because I am here, among other reasons. I feel slightly sad that these are the circumstances, but I choose to be cautiously optimistic that I will be able to make the best choices available to me. I have also chosen to focus on the basic 2 commandments - Love God and Love Others while I figure it all out.

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SamBee
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Re: Symbolism in the temple vs. baptism

Post by SamBee » 23 Nov 2017, 14:47

The entire temple film is symbolic. The garden sequence is much as the Bible - the bit after is obviously using Adam and Eve as stand ins for the human race over the course of history.
DASH1730 "An Area Authority...[was] asked...who...would go to the Telestial kingdom. His answer: "murderers, adulterers and a lot of surprised Mormons!"'
1ST PRES 1978 "[LDS] believe...there is truth in many religions and philosophies...good and great religious leaders... have raised the spiritual, moral, and ethical awareness of their people. When we speak of The [LDS] as the only true church...it is...authorized to administer the ordinances...by Jesus Christ... we do not mean... it is the only teacher of truth."

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