Questioning D&C 9:7-9

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SilentDawning
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Re: Questioning D&C 9:7-9

Post by SilentDawning » 10 Jun 2017, 07:20

DarkJedi wrote:
10 Jun 2017, 07:14
SilentDawning wrote:
10 Jun 2017, 06:54
But anyway, back to the passage from D&C, I think you can probably find a GA's talk where he mentions this passage and implies or states it's a universal approach to receiving revelation....
Just because a GA said doesn't make it scripture or even true. Most of what they say is their own interpretation or opinion, it is not binding on us.
It's true, but the general membership doesn't believe on average. They believe the conference talks are scripture for the next six months. I would still be promulgating that myth if I hadn't joined the unorthodox camp.

I can't believe the shackles I had on my thinking before I learned to put my conscience and my own agency first again. And to stop looking church leaders as some kind of demigod.
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Re: Questioning D&C 9:7-9

Post by Ray DeGraw » 10 Jun 2017, 10:40

SD, if members don't understand it, that is because they haven't read enough statements by GA's - or because they, like everyone else, are cafeteria Mormons who remember what agrees with their personal beliefs and forget what doesn't. I could teach almost anything I wanted to teach, backed by GA quotes, if I was willing to read all published statements by GA's in our history. Therefore, I don't care who quotes whom to back their beliefs. We all have that right, which is something I like about the diversity of statements we get from leaders.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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nibbler
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Re: Questioning D&C 9:7-9

Post by nibbler » 10 Jun 2017, 19:27

I can't tell you how many times I've heard lessons during institute or SS where we addressed this very issue. The revelations for specific people, but because they are canonized in scripture they are meant to be applied universally... "now class, I want us all to go through the exercise of replacing the person's name with our name."

"Behold, I say unto you, nibbler, that because you did not translate according to that which you desired of me, and did commence again to write for my servant, Joseph Smith, Jun., even so I would that ye should continue until you have finished this record, which I have entrusted unto him."

Sounds silly doesn't it, but I've received that instruction all the time.

I'm not talking about where I'm at currently, I'm relating an experience I've often witnessed.
The time to relax is when you don't have time for it. - Sydney J. Harris

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Re: Questioning D&C 9:7-9

Post by nibbler » 10 Jun 2017, 19:42

Please forgive the impudence but:

After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
Validate all major life decisions and answer some really important questions: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

I wonder whether the emphasis we place on James 1:5 has shaped our culture into believing that answering questions and confirming major life decisions is the principle purpose of prayer.

There's a temptation to chase that divine stamp of approval to give us that comfort that we're doing the right thing and on the right track.
The time to relax is when you don't have time for it. - Sydney J. Harris

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DarkJedi
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Re: Questioning D&C 9:7-9

Post by DarkJedi » 11 Jun 2017, 03:59

I agree, Nibbler, and the same principle applies to "Moroni's promise." It's taken out of context, verse 1 tells who it's made to. Yet whenever I have made that argument I get the "but it applies to everybody." Then why didn't Moroni, who allegedly knew who he was writing to, say so?

Just saying. I think we overdo the personal revelation thing based on what other people got for their answers.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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Cnsl1
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Re: Questioning D&C 9:7-9

Post by Cnsl1 » 11 Jun 2017, 11:55

Ray DeGraw wrote:
09 Jun 2017, 20:03
It was a personal statement to one person. Period.

We take WAY too much in the Church that is personal and try to make it universal.
While I completely agree, I think it's a difficult sell. These verses are frequently spouted as a guide to discern truth and these verses have certainly, IMO, helped create the Mormon model of decision making--study it out, make a choice, and pray to God for confirmation, which is provided through feelings. This basic model is part of being or becoming a Mormon, right? Faith in the truthfulness of a book, then a prayer to ask if it's right with the promise that God will provide the answer through the holy ghost. Now Moroni doesn't say how exactly the holy ghost will manifest this but the model is through feelings, which is supported by D&C 9. Missionaries are even encouraged to teach investigators what their feelings mean (which sounds really silly at best and manipulative at worst). Now, maybe we've completely misunderstood the Moroni promise to be about the truth of a book full of theoretical contridictions rather than about the message that Christ is our Savior, but that's probably a thought for a different topic.

My question is, how do we promote the idea that D&C 9 was written for Oliver Cowdry when it's canonized for us? What's not to say that God used this example to teach us how to discern truth?

And what if we used this model to discern whether or not this model was ubiquitous?

OK... So I studied it out and decided that D&C9 was supposed to be specific to Oliver Cowdry and not generalizable to everyone. I prayed asked God if this was right and felt my bosum burn with me. I felt it was right.

Then the universe exploded.

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Re: Questioning D&C 9:7-9

Post by Roy » 11 Jun 2017, 12:46

SilentDawning wrote:
10 Jun 2017, 06:54
I'm on the "comfort" model now. Brian Johnson mentioned that blessings comfort people, so even if they don't come to pass, the experience is a way you can help people ease suffering. I also think they are of value because they provide an opportunity to give advice to someone in a formal setting that they might not otherwise get, or ask for.
nibbler wrote:
10 Jun 2017, 19:42
There's a temptation to chase that divine stamp of approval to give us that comfort that we're doing the right thing and on the right track.
I agree but I believe that this is a feature and not a bug. Suppose that you are debating taking a new job and moving to a distant city. You study it out and weigh the pros and cons until you come to a decision. Then you take it to God in prayer to essentially bless/ratify what you had decided to do. Then you move forward with more confidence then you might otherwise have had. Certainly you do not want to be hasty, imprudent, or overconfident but nor do you want to be paralyzed with indecision, fear, and second guessing.
"It is not so much the pain and suffering of life which crushes the individual as it is its meaninglessness and hopelessness." C. A. Elwood

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Re: Questioning D&C 9:7-9

Post by Ray DeGraw » 11 Jun 2017, 13:37

cnsl1, I simply point out that it was a statement to a person, and at it doesn't work that way for everyone - including me, at times, and lots of people I know. I have NEVER had strong pushback when I have said that - largely because it is so obviously true and multiple people are nodding as I say it.

Also, it was not canonized "for us" as THE way things work. It was canonized as what God told one person - explicitly, since Oliver was the recipient of the statement, and "you" is used repeatedly throughout it in a way that makes it clear it still is being said to him. It doesn't even imply it is for anyone else.

How it has been used by people since then doesn't change that simple fact. There is NO canonized statement that God speaks that way to everyone - or even anyone other than Oliver. In fact, there are statements that say otherwise. I just point out that simple fact, and everyone gets it. Everyone. It helps that I say it gently and with a smile, but everyone gets it.
I see through my glass, darkly - as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God's orchestra. (h/t Elder Joseph Wirthlin)

Even if people view many things differently, the core Gospel principles (LOVE; belief in the unseen but hoped; self-reflective change; symbolic cleansing; striving to recognize the will of the divine; never giving up) are universal.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

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nibbler
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Re: Questioning D&C 9:7-9

Post by nibbler » 11 Jun 2017, 13:40

Roy wrote:
11 Jun 2017, 12:46
I agree but I believe that this is a feature and not a bug. Suppose that you are debating taking a new job and moving to a distant city. You study it out and weigh the pros and cons until you come to a decision. Then you take it to God in prayer to essentially bless/ratify what you had decided to do. Then you move forward with more confidence then you might otherwise have had. Certainly you do not want to be hasty, imprudent, or overconfident but nor do you want to be paralyzed with indecision, fear, and second guessing.
And even then we've got a nice story about the Wrong Roads in life. When god ratifies a binary choice we make and it doesn't work out, we can then go forward in 100% confidence that the other road was the correct one. In those cases you just have to hope that you didn't get too far down the incorrect path before making the realization. ;)

If we use prayer to move forward maybe there's a Urim and Thummim approach: either/or, this or that, 0 or 1; and a "ok lord, I'm here at this stage in my life, now what?" approach.
The time to relax is when you don't have time for it. - Sydney J. Harris

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DarkJedi
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Re: Questioning D&C 9:7-9

Post by DarkJedi » 11 Jun 2017, 14:54

Ray DeGraw wrote:
11 Jun 2017, 13:37
cnsl1, I simply point out that it was a statement to a person, and at it doesn't work that way for everyone - including me, at times, and lots of people I know. I have NEVER had strong pushback when I have said that - largely because it is so obviously true and multiple people are nodding as I say it.

Also, it was not canonized "for us" as THE way things work. It was canonized as what God told one person - explicitly, since Oliver was the recipient of the statement, and "you" is used repeatedly throughout it in a way that makes it clear it still is being said to him. It doesn't even imply it is for anyone else.

How it has been used by people since then doesn't change that simple fact. There is NO canonized statement that God speaks that way to everyone - or even anyone other than Oliver. In fact, there are statements that say otherwise. I just point out that simple fact, and everyone gets it. Everyone. It helps that I say it gently and with a smile, but everyone gets it.
I agree with this and also have never really gotten pushback (unlike my earlier example of Moroni). It's also worth pointing out it didn't really work for Oliver either. He failed at translating. If we read carefully, not only is this revelation specifically for Oliver, it is specifically about translating.
In the absence of knowledge or faith there is always hope.

Once there was a gentile...who came before Hillel. He said "Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

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